Won't Align!

[Desert Patina]

Well, after putting in a new rack, the tech said he can't align it.

The steering wheel is too wobbly (I'll have to check to see if that isn't loose bolts) and he said the struts are shot.

Now, he's right, I do need to have the shocks rebuilt, but I'm betting he's really telling me the springs are sagging to much?

I need new springs, and from where (or what specs for stock?)

Many thanks.

[Meotchh]

What did he mean by "The steering wheel is too wobbly"?

[Desert Patina]

Well, it is wobbly. Its been that way for months. There's sideways play just in the steering wheel. Turn the wheel and the wheels turn without hesitation, the new steering rack is great. But you can move the steering wheel (not turning, but real translation) side to side about 2 or 3 mm.

[blueboss]

You have two options.
#1. Find a new tech. IMO, the job got a little difficult and he didn't want to deal with it so he "can't align it because your [fill in the blank] is bad". You can still align the SVO with bad struts. Their operational condition has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to align the vehicle properly. Sagging/worn out springs could affect the ability to align the camber properly. On the SVO, the only things that will affect the ability to align the steering are: worn steering rack, worn out LCA bushings, worn tie rods (inner and/or outer) or worn ball joints. Worn wheel bearings or a worn out steering coupler CAN affect the alignment but don't always as a general rule. Sideways play in the steering wheel was addressed recently by a member here. Easy fix, won't affect alignment whatsoever.

#2 Start throwing money at the front end. And you might as well replace everything while you're in there. Ball joints, tie rods, bushings, steering coupler, struts....etc. Just pick a part and allow scope creep to guide you until you either run out of money or parts to replace. Then take it back to your "tech" for an alignment. This way, when he tells you that your [fill in blank] is bad, you can notify him that everything is brand new, he's F.O.S., and you're out.

[Desert Patina]

For the record, there's no play at all at the tire. And the ride height doesn't seem low to me at all.

His excuse for the steering wheel is that he has to lock it in place for the alignment, and if you anchor a point on the steering wheel and it translates side to side it will turn the wheels.

Since I'm not the operator of the equipment, I can't validate that story.

[MikeFleming]

Sounds like a broken rag joint to me.

Weak springs just means it sits lower. Springs don't make things "wobble".

[Patrick]

Desert Patina, PM me an Email address and I'll send you hints on wobbly steering wheels.

[Desert Patina]

You know, maybe there is something to the struts...

The person before me ran some oversized wide tires on it, and they rubbed against the shocks constantly. Also there is no guarantee that he/she didn't just replace it with regular GT shocks. I'm pretty sure they are Koni's and have looked into having them rebuilt, but given that I've been wrong before I should revisit that.

Maybe the shocks really are to blame. What's the likelyhood that the shocks can get damaged or bent with oversized tires?

[MikeFleming]

The person before me ran some oversized wide tires on it, and they rubbed against the shocks constantly. How are you determining that the tyres actually touched the struts?

If you look at the second pic in this post, you will see some rubbing marks on some front KONI struts. Those ALL came from the dust boot - notice the vertical lines. There was NO tyre contact.

http://www.svocop.com/forum/showthread.php?1367-Creation-of-the-Red-Baron-Phase-1-Disassemble&p=11162&viewfull=1#post11162

A tyre sidewall rubbing against any metal suspension part will result in quick failure of the tyre. Modern high-performance tyres do not have strong sidewalls.

[TheSVOTrust]

Sounds like a broken rag joint to me.

Weak springs just means it sits lower. Springs don't make things "wobble:.

Is there an SVO owner that hasn't replace a rag joint (or 6)?
It was suggested that it might need one a few times, there is a chance that the column mount is loose.

You should be able to see the rag joint from the top with light and a person in the car turning the wheel. (kind of between the master and the inner fender) Once confirmed and fixed or discounted then you can check the column mount.

Don't they use those "break off bolts" as a safety item?

Mark
P.S. Every Koni on an SVO looks like Mike's #2 photo

[Desert Patina]

"How are you determining that the tyres actually touched the struts?"

Because of the patches where the paint was worn off. While I haven't checked to see if the scuffs are horizontal or vertical, that does seem a more likely cause. I haven't had time to check recently (i've been looking into how to bleed the brakes on a Kia Sedona van because the tech there claims changing the pads (which doesn't open the lines) has introduced air in the "accumulator" for the ABS system).

"You should be able to see the rag joint from the top with light and a person in the car turning the wheel"

I can confirm you are right! I can see it from the top, and from the bottom, and dead on when I replaced the steering rack about a week ago. The rag joint was perfectly fine. I've even changed the one on my '89 convertible.

There really is no play in the steering column at that joint, it rotates a joint just behind the switches on the steering column.

I'm told from another forum that I should first inspect the bolts that hold the steering wheel column to the dash frame, and the bolts right behind the multi-function switch to see if they have become loose. That seems the most likely cause there -- again when I get the time to inspect it.

By the way, I'm not sure where people got the idea that I claimed the springs made the steering wheel wobble. :confused: But then again there aught to be a word for not being able to actually say what is on the top of my mind. I somehow always miss that part.

So to clarify...

I believe the only interest I have in the springs is that I'm trying to figure out why the tech blamed the struts when he claimed the camber was too far off for him to align.

I can think of damaged shocks, or really worn springs. But neither really seem to be the case.

Thanks for your patience and your help. Sorry for any confusion...

[MikeFleming]

The marks on the strut body are definitely from the dust boots and NOT from the tyre.

Now if the inside sidewall of the tyre is polished and sections of rubber are missing, then that's a different story. But I expect it would have worn through the strut dust boot first.

As springs weaken, or when lowering, camber will go more negative without correction. There is significant camber adjustment in the upper strut mounts on stock SVOs. Unless something is severely worn or bent, I can't think of any reason why you (actually your SVO!) couldn't get close to stock camber settings.

[dznj]

Sounds like a broken rag joint to me.

Weak springs just means it sits lower. Springs don't make things "wobble:.

+1 - Rag joint. You can replace the joint, or you can replace the whole shaft with a MM unit (or Flaming River unit).

D

[Desert Patina]

For the record, it wasn't the rag joint, nor does the rag joint need to be replaced.

Last Saturday I took off the multi-switch on the steering column and found two 13mm bolts that screwed in towards the passenger side. One was at the top of the column, the other at the bottom.

They were loose, I could tighten or loosen them with just my fingers.

I applied blue lock-tite and tightened them back down. Now the steering wheel is solid.

Just to repeat, it was not the rag joint (which I already knew having inspected it when I replaced the steering rack).

[dznj]

For the record, it wasn't the rag joint, nor does the rag joint need to be replaced.

Last Saturday I took off the multi-switch on the steering column and found two 13mm bolts that screwed in towards the passenger side. One was at the top of the column, the other at the bottom.

They were loose, I could tighten or losen them with just my fingers.

I applied blue lock-tite and tightened them back down. Now the steering wheel is solid.

Just to repeat, it was not the rag joint (which I already knew having inspected it when I replaced the steering rack).

Just to repeat again ... it was not the rag joint.

Let me tell you a story about a man who did not have a bad rag joint ....

We just wanted you to practice rag joint replacement. I'll ban myself on the way out....

[Desert Patina]

FWIW, I did buy another HELP rag joint just in case. I think I like it better than the white soft one that is on there now. I'm planning to practice that again (having done it already on my `89) when I don't have anything better to do. Or changing the U-Joints. Or both.

;)

[Bob Holmes]

We just wanted you to practice rag joint replacement. I'll ban myself on the way out....

Looks like you've got the program down.

[Patrick]

We just wanted you to practice rag joint replacement. I'll ban myself on the way out....

Well done. Thanks for relieving me of another task.

[Desert Patina]

Well, even with the fixed steering wheel they still can't align it, or more specifically it can't hold an alignment. When asked, the tech said its because the struts are too worn.

I'm not sure what it means, but he did a bouncing hand kind of gesture to tell me what the shock is doing when he tries to align.

Sometimes I feel so ignorant.

[blueboss]

Well, even with the fixed steering wheel they still can't align it, or more specifically it can't hold an alignment. When asked, the tech said its because the struts are too worn.

I'm not sure what it means, but he did a bouncing hand kind of gesture to tell me what the shock is doing when he tries to align.

Sometimes I feel so ignorant.

Ok, here's the test that I've always used to diagnose bad/going bad shocks/struts. Push down (put your ass into it, don't be shy) on the front/rear of the car two consecutive times as if you're trying to bounce it, then let go. With good shocks/struts, it should go down and back up then stop. Any more than down and up twice and the shocks are probably on their way out. Three times.....they're shot. This works on just about any vehicle. The strut in the SVO serves two functions. #1 To dampen the spring oscillations. #2 To serve as an attach point between the spindle and an adjustable suspension point (shock tower for camber adj). New Koni's can be had from PPI for $200 each. The alternative is strut inserts as NO ONE makes replacement struts for the SVO except Koni. The struts from a regular Fox Mustang and the SVO are not interchangeable. For whatever reason, if you really want this guy to do the alignment, make him put the car up on the rack and TELL/SHOW you EVERYTHING that's bad then do the repairs. BTW, stop being so hard on yourself. Everyone has their strengths.

[Desert Patina]

FWIW, I did the shock test last week (I do it by standing on the bumper). The think is rock steady, no bouncing at all. But I do think the shocks need to be rebuilt. While it may seem strange, it absorbs big motion well but not small motion (like there is play in it somehow).

Anyone here know some quick and easy shocks I can put on it while I work out what to do with the Konis? I'm ready to do a full LCA bushing/boot and shocks/springs rebuild, but not until after we move in May. Unless I can create room in the garage though, all I'm worried about is having a car on stands out in the front where the HOA can get angry.

[blueboss]

Anyone here know some quick and easy shocks I can put on it while I work out what to do with the Konis? I'm ready to do a full LCA bushing/boot and shocks/springs rebuild, but not until after we move in May. Unless I can create room in the garage though, all I'm worried about is having a car on stands out in the front where the HOA can get angry.


New Koni's can be had from PPI for $200 each. The alternative is strut inserts as NO ONE makes replacement struts for the SVO except Koni. The struts from a regular Fox Mustang and the SVO are not interchangeable.

These are your only two options if you intend to retain the factory Konis. BTW, the strut inserts are installed into your existing Koni housings.

[stott]

I had my svo struts replaced a bit ago, I think they used an sn95 strut and had to install thick washers because the mounting ears are further apart on the svo. they were definitely not the right fit but they were cheap Kyb and at least worked.

in the process of correcting that error now