Turbo Coolant Hoses - Applied Technologies Header

[cometcyclonemk]

First things first: Don't buy this header. It makes everything in the vicinity of the turbo a PITA. That said, it came with the car, so...

I'm replacing the coolant feed line which has started leaking, and have a likely very silly question. I'd like to re-route the line as noted in the attached picture (yellow is current routing, blue is proposed). Any reason why I shouldn't do that? The current routing has the AN-8 hose (attached to the black swivel fitting in the image) sharply bent and rubbing on the turbo housing. Seems like running it straight back would be more direct and provide less contact with the turbo. Thoughts?

I haven't seemed to be able to find something (aside from the hacked together setup from the PO) - anything simple available to T into 5/8 hose with AN-8? Only solution I've seen involves a 1/2" NPT T, with 2 NPT->5/8 Hose Barb adapters and 1 NPT->AN-8 adapter. Seems like an awful lot of fittings...

Anyone with this header have any tips for line routing or simplifying the turbo R&R process?

Not to rush responses... But I had intended to autocross this Saturday before my seeping fitting foiled my plans... :(

Thanks!
4102

[MikeFleming]

Sort version? No.

Longer version:
For reference, the thing on the head side of the turbo is coolant out - where the hot coolant exits the CHRA. That flow MUST go to the tube that connects to the thermostat housing (just before it goes to the radiator). It looks like your blue line connects to a cold feed line and not a hot return line.

Relatively cool coolant exits the left, lower hole on the radiator and gets sucked into the water pump. This larger hose usually has an anti-collapsing wire inside it so it doesn't get sucked closed. The water pump pushes the "colder" coolant into the lower portion of the block, past all the cylinder walls to the rear of the engine.

At the rear of the block, between cylinder walls 3 & 4 is the [relatively] cold coolant outlet that feeds the outside (shock tower side) of the CHRA. Set this thought aside for a moment.

After the [relatively] colder coolant reaches the rear of the block, it turns upwards and flows forward through the cylinder head past the intake & exhaust posts and spark plug areas. It picks up LOTS more heat here than in the cylinder wall areas of the block. Then it travels forward to the thermostat housing, through the top radiator hose to the radiator. Where it sheds heat to the incoming airflow.

The radiator drops the temp 20-40 degrees F, and it then exits the lower, left radiator hose back to the water pump and continues the process of moving heat around. For techniocal completeness, there are small vent holes between the cylinders between the block and head (much larger in the castings so they're easier to clean and inspect (where coolant flow is severely limited by small holes in the head gasket. This helps remove air pockets and bubbles when filling/draining coolant. These holes provide an insignificant cooling effect.

When the coolant is cold, the thermostat limits coolant flow out of the head to the radiator but the water pump still circulates it through the block and head in the same direction. As the coolant reaches the set opening point of the thermostat, it starts allowing hot coolant to leave the engine and flow to the radiator, which allows colder coolant from the radiator, gallon for gallon, to enter the water pump and block. The thermostat regulates the volume of coolant flow to keep it at, or higher than, the set point exit temp.

The thermostat determines the *minimum* stable operating temp. The radiator, airflow, etc. determine the max temp.

Back to the CHRA inlet fitting on the side of the block. OUTLET from the CHRA needs to go back forward towards the thermostat housing tube, NOT into a water pump cold feed line. You can splice in that hot/return line from the CHRA anywhere into the hot return line that goes to the thermostat housing.

DO NOT connect it to a cold feed line.

[cometcyclonemk]

Hmmm...

The proposed routing (blue) and the current routing (yellow) both go to the same line - the which goes from the drivers side heater core connection to the upper of the two small ones on the front of the block - the thermostat (though the picture doesn't make that super clear). Perhaps a drawing will show it better. I'm practically a Picasso... so don't hold back on critiquing the artwork!

Note: This is the current set up - as done by the PO (5 years ago)... It may be wrong, but it hasn't seemed to have caused a problem? Either way, I want it right. The blue vs. red is my (mis)interpretation of your explanation, Mike - It would seem to imply that the return from the turbo is improperly connected.

4103

[MikeFleming]

The paths look right, although the colors don't properly represent which are cold (blue) and hot (red).

The two long lines front-to-back should be reversed in color and the outlet front the CHRA should be red.

The "?" should be replaced with "Oil Cooler". And there should be either a small girl or a tree in the corner.

[ChrisCurtin]

Are the SVOs different than the Turbo GT/RS/Coupes? If not, then the two 'T's near the heater core (going to the oil cooler) is wrong. The flow should be one T to the turbo, that end to the oil cooler, the oil cooler to the heater core, the heater core back to the front of the engine.

Various threads about the correct lines and flows:

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=128428&highlight=coolant+lines

http://www.svocop.com/forum/showthread.php?1539-turbo-water-drain-line-part-s&highlight=coolant+lines

As you have it drawn, won't the oil cooler never get any flow (or really reduced) ?

[baltimucho]

... And there should be either a small girl or a tree in the corner.

I spit pretzel crumbs all over my keyboard.

[MikeFleming]

The flow should be one T to the turbo, that end to the oil cooler, the oil cooler to the heater core, the heater core back to the front of the engine. Yes, the oil cooler and heater core should be in series - one side of the heater to the oil cooler, other side of heater to thermostat housing and other side of oil cooler to water pump.


I spit pretzel crumbs all over my keyboard. Yellow mustard spots on the monitor??

I was thinking of stick figures when I wrote that but I didn't provide enough detail. My bad.

[Kendal Coker]

The 84-85 svo has one set of lines, the 85.5 and 86 has a set and the 83-86 turbo coupes have another set. GT turbo lines are the same as the 84 svo.

[cometcyclonemk]

Does this show the correct routing? (stolen from google)

What are people with aftermarket headers (which don't permit the factory hard lines) doing to make the connection? It seems as though no one makes a 5/8" hose Tee with an AN fitting... Are you using custom hard lines?

4104

[MikeFleming]

I just fab'd up my own hot return line (the feed line on the lower/outside cleared the headers I have used). The outer is a 1/2 flare and with the large sided tubing flare kits, you can easily install a tube nut after flaring then bend it to fit. Bending real close to the tube nut can be tricky though.

Thin wall steel or copper tubing will work just fine. Be sure to paint it black so no one will know.

[cometcyclonemk]

More questions...

Are the flarenuts / copper tubing you're referring to those that are available at a hardware store? My local Lowes and Home Depot have these: http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=6423 and http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=6432 but they appear to be designed for OD sized tubing, and the stores only seem to carry ID sized tubing... I'm no plumber, but that's not going to work! Am I on the wrong track here?

Thanks again!

[in2fords]

If the difference is only 1/16th of an inch of so I think you'd be fine.

[MikeFleming]

Tubing is defined by OD, pipe is defined by ID.

You could use 1/2 thin-wall copper tubing and swap over the tube nut from the stock tube, if you have one. If you start adding a bunch of fittings/adapters, that can get kind long from the CHRA and foul the header tubes.

None of the normal hardware stores carry 1/2" copper tubing around here. You may need to order it. Make sure your double-flaring tool will work with 1/2" tubing also.

[cometcyclonemk]

Silly work keeps getting in the way of fixing my car... Couple more questions (it never ends!):

1. Since I don't have the factory hard lines... Did the factory use a 1/2" NPT threaded male flare nut?

2. If that's what it used, where do you find these? I might be using the wrong terminology but I've checked McMaster, Summit, local hardware stores, etc. They all seem to carry straight cut threads, but not pipe.

Since this seemingly simple problem is starting to take an absurd amount of time to solve... And my frustration (with work and Mustang) levels are ever-increasing... How about some links to the parts you guys are using?

Actually, for putting up with my silly questions - first person to send links to the correct flare nut / tube / fitting combo gets a couple of 1984 Ford promotional post cards (mailed directly or in an envelope)! Road and Track not included!

4116

Thanks!

[cometcyclonemk]

Bueller?

Anyone have a spare stock tube nut?

[cometcyclonemk]

Okay... So I know people kinda wrote my post off when I showed my artistic inability... But seriously, I'm just trying to keep the Mustang on the road. In the 6ish years I've owned this thing it's probably spent more time in the garage than driving over a lack of knowledge on my part on how silly little things like this need to get done (combined with a job that keeps me out of the garage).

Please accept my lack of knowledge as a teaching opportunity to keep the young interested in maintaining an almost 30 year old car :)

So... Made some coolant lines. Routed them as per this diagram:

5228

Woohoo! Everything's cool, right? Nope! In the ever continuing saga of my parked SVO the next chapter was to be coolant exiting the hot side of the turbo where the elbow bolts to it. This only happens for about 20 seconds on start-up before it gets hot enough that it must evaporate.
5229

My first thought: Crap, it's a headgasket! But... Clean oil and coolant. Not losing oil or coolant (at least over 50ish miles). Engine (headgasket included) has about 5000 miles on it. Compression test shows 145psi across the board. "Engine Block Test" shows no signs of exhaust gases in coolant.

Next thought: Crap, it's the turbo. (I have no idea if a bad turbo seal can cause it to blow coolant out...). But... Turbo was rebuilt about 500 miles ago by Evergreen. No signs of this when I put it on, just now that I have the coolant lines routed per the above diagram.

This, and the conflicting routing shown in the threads linked to be previous responses leads me to believe (hope) that my routing is incorrect and causing a flow issue resulting in excessive coolant being blown past some seal in the turbo and out the exhaust (again, no idea about the black magic inside a turbo, where the coolant flows through it, etc.).

For reference my fresh lines look like this (I ended up making an elbow to take care of the lack of an "S" hose):
5230

So... Before I go digging deeper, pulling the turbo or the head... Can someone verify the correct routing of the coolant lines? Is there any way to further diagnose the issue?

Help would be majorly appreciated... If anyone is in the Seattle area and want's to come check it out, unlimited beers (while you're here) will be provided!

- Frustrated

[MikeFleming]

Do you have access to a cooling system pressure tester?

As far as coolant leaking out of the CHRA, that's most unlikely. There aren't any seals for coolant in the housing so the only way it could leak coolant in the turbine housing would be for the CHRA housing to be cracked, the coolant to leak into the oil area and past the turbine seal. I'd expect it to be "spraying for skeeters" with engine oil getting onto the turbine wheel long before coolant would get there.

Perhaps more likely is a cracked exhaust valve seat area into coolant that's more pronounced when cold. This should show up with a pressure tester - although you may need to take the exhaust manifold off to see it. The system should hold 16-17 PSIG for hours.

[cometcyclonemk]

I don't have one, but it looks like the parts houses loan them. I'll pick one up tomorrow and see how the test goes.

Thanks for the help, Mike!

[Meotchh]

If you were a little closer, I would loan you mine.
I bought a kit from tool liquidators for just under $100.

[MikeFleming]

Harbor Freight has [a cheap] one for ~$50. Fortunately you won't need any small-cap adapters - those can get pricey.

[Meotchh]

Harbor Freight has [a cheap] one for ~$50. Fortunately you won't need any small-cap adapters - those can get pricey.
Maybe no small cap adaptors are needed on the SVO, but I needed more options for Lisa's CRV.

[MikeFleming]

Aren't we talking mostly about SVOs here - where no cap adapters are needed?

Most everything in the last 15 years needs a different cap/radiator adapter. And at ~$15/each, that can get pricey.

T he newer cooling systems are often at higher pressures too.

[cometcyclonemk]

Autozone had a decent looking "motorad" brand one for their loaner.

Ran it up to 16psi, no visible leaks. Held 16psi for at least 2 hours. Checked it a bit ago (about 16 hours later) and it had dropped to about 15psi. The turbo is also visibly damp as though it were sweating like a cold surface. I guess it's time to pull the header and see if it's coming out of one of the ports?

[MikeFleming]

No other parts of the turbine housing or CHRA are damp on the outside?? I don't see how coolant/water can get from the CHRA area to the outlet of rhe turbine housing.

I'd also be curious tt see how wet the exhaust ports are as that seems most likely. Why it's show up on the TOP of the turbine outlet elbow seems rather strange also.

Time to make more Crocodile Tongues.

[notacarlo]

Okay... So I know people kinda wrote my post off when I showed my artistic inability... But seriously, I'm just trying to keep the Mustang on the road. In the 6ish years I've owned this thing it's probably spent more time in the garage than driving over a lack of knowledge on my part on how silly little things like this need to get done (combined with a job that keeps me out of the garage).

Please accept my lack of knowledge as a teaching opportunity to keep the young interested in maintaining an almost 30 year old car :)

So... Made some coolant lines. Routed them as per this diagram:

5228

Woohoo! Everything's cool, right? Nope! In the ever continuing saga of my parked SVO the next chapter was to be coolant exiting the hot side of the turbo where the elbow bolts to it. This only happens for about 20 seconds on start-up before it gets hot enough that it must evaporate.
5229

My first thought: Crap, it's a headgasket! But... Clean oil and coolant. Not losing oil or coolant (at least over 50ish miles). Engine (headgasket included) has about 5000 miles on it. Compression test shows 145psi across the board. "Engine Block Test" shows no signs of exhaust gases in coolant.

Next thought: Crap, it's the turbo. (I have no idea if a bad turbo seal can cause it to blow coolant out...). But... Turbo was rebuilt about 500 miles ago by Evergreen. No signs of this when I put it on, just now that I have the coolant lines routed per the above diagram.

This, and the conflicting routing shown in the threads linked to be previous responses leads me to believe (hope) that my routing is incorrect and causing a flow issue resulting in excessive coolant being blown past some seal in the turbo and out the exhaust (again, no idea about the black magic inside a turbo, where the coolant flows through it, etc.).

For reference my fresh lines look like this (I ended up making an elbow to take care of the lack of an "S" hose):
5230

So... Before I go digging deeper, pulling the turbo or the head... Can someone verify the correct routing of the coolant lines? Is there any way to further diagnose the issue?

Help would be majorly appreciated... If anyone is in the Seattle area and want's to come check it out, unlimited beers (while you're here) will be provided!

- Frustrated

I just jumped into this thread so I apologize if I missed anything. The fluid coming from the turbine housing to downpipe/wastegate housing is likely condensation. My Buick which had the turbo way up front and easily seen did this on start up as well. Once everything heated up and expanded, that stopped. Happened every time I started it. There was always a small dried stain on the floor of my garage directly under the turbine. That turbo did not use a gasket between the turbine and downpipe.

[cometcyclonemk]

Mike: On startup it's coming out of the entire perimeter of the CHRA to Elbow interface (from what I can see, though the intercooler doesn't make it easy to inspect while running). On sitting overnight with the coolant pressure tester at 16psi the entire CHRA and most of the elbow was damp (no localized coolant, just damp all over). I too find it curious that enough would be coming out an exhaust port that it would exit at the top, without any noticeable coolant loss.

Notacarlo: That would be fantastic... I'm just weary given that I never noticed it before, and that similar condensation does not seem common among SVO owners...

[dew34]

antifreeze/coolant has a very distinct smell when it is heated from either the exhaust it self or the manifold . mike

[MikeFleming]

Mike: On startup it's coming out of the entire perimeter of the CHRA to Elbow interface (from what I can see, though the intercooler doesn't make it easy to inspect while running). Get a 50 Lb bag of salt and six candles ...

[cometcyclonemk]

Time to make more Crocodile Tongues.


Get a 50 Lb bag of salt and six candles ...

Hmmm...

The area does smell mildly of burning coolant, however the leak that started the re-route sprayed coolant all over; I'd expect it to smell of that for a while regardless of current issues.

I'll be pulling the header in the coming days. I'll report back when that's done.