measuring outer tie rod locations

[ChrisCurtin]

Hi,

Not an SVO but you guys seem to know a thing or two about suspensions ;)

84 Capri RS Turbo. SN95 lower control arms, 87 ball joints, 87+ spindles and brakes. 04 Cobra rack & MM bumpsteer kit for the rack and longer control arms.

Since none of this was a carry over from the stock, I have no idea how to get the outer tie rods setup correctly. Currently I have a bad 'pigeon toe' going on and after several iterations of 'take them off, open a couple of threads, put the back on' I figure I'm missing something.

So, rookie question: how do I get the setup 'close enough' when I don't have the original lock nuts in the correct place?

Thanks,

Chris

[JTurbo]

How about the "string" method of alignment: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/chassis/hrdp_0411_wheel_alignment_guide/viewall.html

JT

[ChrisCurtin]

How about the "string" method of alignment: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/chassis/hrdp_0411_wheel_alignment_guide/viewall.html

JT

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense with the conduit.

Chris

[MikeFleming]

Are you asking about setting toe? Of about adjusting the bump steer? Or both?

[ChrisCurtin]

Are you asking about setting toe? Of about adjusting the bump steer? Or both?

Just toe for now so I can move her around (no engine yet). The wheels are clearly not pointing straight forward so I want to fix that.

Thanks,

Chris

[MikeFleming]

Get some jackstands and lots of kite string. Set the stands along the sides of the chassis a few feet bey9ond each wheel. Then srun he string between the stands. Make the string parallel to the edges of hte rear ture (actuall wheel lip) and set it the same distance from the wheel lip on the front.

Tape measure the front vs. rear of the font wheels to the string and set them to the same value. Repeat on other side.

I have pictures of Pat doing that on a car at one of the Reunions. We were going do to an instructional video, but ,iirc, he was about 4 six-packs beyond being the narrator at that point. The car came out fine, btw.

[Bob Holmes]

Scotch comes in six-packs?

[MikeFleming]

The airplane-sized bottles, yes.

The larger bottles are often used to refill the empty O'Douls bottles. I'l post some pics later.

[ChrisCurtin]

Thanks guys. Can you clarify something for me? Is the scotch for using the bottles instead of jack stands or to drink so I can make sure the line is straight? Or to convince my friends to help me yet again work on this time and money sink?

[MikeFleming]

Yes.

[MikeFleming]

As promised, some pics. But first, a Public Service Announcement (aka PSA).

This is why you should not share your brew and tools with the locals. This kid was gonna fill up that lighting pole with whatever he got his hands on. Just say NO.

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The Pat Parking Lot String/Jack Stand Toe Adjustment Process Pictorial Guide (aka PPLS-JSTAPP Guide).

We tell Pat he's doing an alignment Tech Session. And it starts now.
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Getting his bearings straight.
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Pat telling the car what he's doing.
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A lonely beer in a dangerous place.
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Beer moved to a safer location.
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Pat was not pleased that his beer had been moved. I told him Gator took it.
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In his world-famous style, Gator denies any involvement.
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Place the stands and string parallel to the rear wheel rim (string looks like fishing line). Measure from front and rear of rear rim to verify string is parallel to chassis; move stands as needed. Then measure to front rim lips - make front and rear of front rim the same distance to the string by adjusting toe setting.
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Vice grips. Don't leave home without 'em.
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I brought Pat a fresh cold one. There's no Pat like a Happy Pat.
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[ChrisCurtin]

Thanks. (Remember I'm a newbie at this stuff) What is he doing with the vice grips? I don't see a jack and tools so I'm assuming you're not removing the outer tie rod and adding/removing turns? Is he turning the inner tie rod with the vice grips?

[MikeFleming]

Ahh, I understand your question now. You do not need to R&R the tie rod end. See pic. The tie rod (attached to the steering rack inside the bellows) rotates freely inside the rack end.

There is a large locknut on the inside edge of the tie-rod end - on the steering arm (called a tie rod). Loosen that locknut (#1 in pic) and put a 1/2" open-end (iirc) wrench on the hex portion (#2) of the tie rod and rotate it. Both sides (of tie rods and tie rod ends) are normal, right-hand threads. So the side that needs to be longer gets rotated anti-clockwise and the side that needs to be shorter gets rotated clockwise. When it's all set, snug the locknuts and re-check.

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[ChrisCurtin]

Thank you so much!

[MikeFleming]

Last step: Remove any twisting in the bellows boot. It will rotate with the tire rod and should be loosened or rotated on the outer clamp to remove any twisting. Sometimes loosening the clamp is needed; sometimes just grabbing it with a gloved hand and twisting will work. Be aware of the sharp edges on the spring clamp.

Additional thought: If the car drives straight and the toe-in is set properly but the steering wheel is slightly off center, shorten one tie rod by a couple flats and lengthen the other by the same amount. This will keep the toe setting the same while allowing the rack to move slightly left or right.

Re-test the steering wheel position after a drive. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[SVOC]

Those photos are classic, as the vintage "Member's Only" jacket worn by Pat :stick_poke:

[Bob Holmes]

:like2:

[JTurbo]

Ahhh, the memories....

[Under Pressure]

I installed my new Cardone steering rack yesterday with new poly bushing (red) and new Moog tie rod ends. I eyeballed them in and drove a few miles to Precision Tune for a front end alignment. They put it up the 3 guys looked underneath. I'm watching. they put it down after 15 minutes of doing nothing. The head Clown comes in and tells me there isn't enough adjustment on the steering rods to adjust it. I realized after talking to him he was pulling a scam. I told him take it down he said that would still be $40. I kept my cool( and it was a hot day). I compared the old rack with the new rack at Summit. They are the same as are the Moog tie rod ends. I told the Clown that. I pulled up the Hot Rod tech posted here. Today I spent $40 on conduit and stuff so I can do it myself. I see in the pic Pat has the measurement around 13/4" toe in. Is that about what I want? You can see in the pic the Ford tie rod end and the Moog with the new rack. I can't post the pic I'll see if I can get it later After I sleep.

[Under Pressure]

pic7636

[MikeFleming]

Uh yeah. The spec for total toe-in is somwhere between 1/8 and 1/16".

The pic measurement you're seeing is the distance between the string (aka fishing line) and the rim edge. There's kinda a logistical issue with getting the string to actually touch the rims with the tyre in the way and all so the parallel string is placed a few inches (in this case about 1.5-2.0") from the rim to be clear of the tyre and other body stuffs.

Adjust the string / stands position to where it's exactly exactly 1.5" (or 2.0") from the front *and* rear edge of the rear wheel (here we are making a rather large assumption that the rear axle is straight, centered and exactly perpendicular to the center line of the chassis and that none of the wheels have any bends or runout, etc.).

Then measure the string distance to the front and rear of the front rims. Subtract the two values by using some of that math magic stuff to come up with tow-in or tow-out (toe-in means the front of the rim is farther from the string than the rear of the rim). I always ask my daughter to assist when there's math involed.

As far as enough thread engagement pf the tie rod (male threads) into the tie rod ends (female threads with the 90-degree ball joint at the far end), make sure there's at least 8 full turns of thread engagement at the installed length.

Note this method gets a bit more complex if there is adjustable toe for the rear wheels. In those cases we usually have a mark showing exactly where the chassis centerline is on the front and rear. Then place the stands exactly the same distance from the centerline marks on each side.

Lastly make sure you roll the car at least ten feet into the position under full weight before setting the stands and string. If you have to raise a corner using a jack, you will need to start all over by rolling it back ten feet, then forward again. The nre-set the stands/strings.

It's kinda fun to watch this process when crews do this at the track. Which is usually ony needed if they forgot their floating plates.

[Under Pressure]

OK, I'll play with it next week, thanks

[MikeFleming]

No, you should do it NOW. People are following this thread and need the results ASAP. Don't leave us hanging ...

[Under Pressure]

OK, OK, remain calm or as they say at the boarder ( tranquilo). My fiancee says I snore, so she keeps waking me up. I need rest, you know Sleep. I'll Need all my energy just to tie that fishing line together. I'll get er done in slow-motion after I sleep, my pillow is calling me now.

[Under Pressure]

I did the alignment today. It took awhile, but after I stopped tripping on the fishing line I got it going. I dialed it down to about 1/8 to 1/4". It is tricky to get a real good measurement off the rim. Took it out and works good tracks straight. I'm going to do it again now that everything has settled down in place. The steering wheel is off a little but I'll get that tomorrow.7654765576567657

[MikeFleming]

I remember that dog poker picture from the 70's! Ahh, the memories.

[Under Pressure]

I did a lot of adjusting on the rack today. Dialed it down to 2 mm toe-in. The conduit makes it easy to go back & forth to each side. Got the steering wheel centered. Good thing I was only doing 70mph (speed limit) when I passed the G.S.P. & then his G.S.P. buddy over the next hill. He liked my Red SVO, he was starring at me as I passed his hand held radar gun. Going out to check the alignment One More Time.