Main cap straps

[SVOfish]

The 2.3 motor im building alread had esslinger main cap strap kit/studs on it as well as all of the machine work/milling to the original caps done. I am re-assembling my block now, and i am having clearance issues withe the oil pump pickup tube/screen to oil pan clearance (it is measuring about 1/8" clearance) It is the original pump screen/tube that affixes to the main stud and is fastened by the main stud bolt. is there a different screen/tube i need to be using for proper oil pickup/screen to pan clearance with your main strap kit? any help would be appreciated. I have attempted modifying the pickup tube bracket where it affixes to the main strap with not real luck. It appears the previous owner took the factory pan and welded up some extra clearance to clear the front main straps/studs so the pan would clear it.

[MikeFleming]

1/8" clearance between the bottom of the pickup screen and top of inner pan surface is correct, actually perfect. Make sure you're compensating for the actual thickness of the sump gasket you will be using, compressed thickness.

Look through my engine thread for the Red Baron (http://www.svocop.com/forum/showthread.php?1821-Creation-of-the-Red-Baron-Phase-4-Power/page2). I modified the pickup tube support mount to work with the studs/straps. Start with post 20 or so.

[SVOfish]

Thanks for the info mike. I was not able to find a spec until I ran across the essy link in your thread. I was thinking around 1/4" or so would be acceptable. I stand corrected.

[MikeFleming]

No worries, Mate!

[SVOfish]

Mike, what brand of straps are those on your mains? I believe mine are esslinger (going by looks here, they were already installed by the previous owner.) They are about 3/4" thick, and have long main studs. My problem is, with the straps installed and the nuts torqued, I do not have any room to affix the pickup bracket over the stud and put another nut to hold it down ( like shown in your build thread) I can post pictures later if needed.

[MikeFleming]

Don't know who made them - they were provided by the machine shop that fitted them.

I also had some issues with having enough exposed stud length to mount the pick-up tube support. Had to use a short (jamb) nut. Iirc one or more of the "longer" studs was longer than the rest (while the non-strapped #5 cap studs were shorter still). You can always not seat it fully into the block by a turn or so if there's enough length. Otherwise you may need to get a custom longer stud.

[SVOfish]

Mike, do you by chance know the in block thread size for the main on the 2.3? I need to clean out the threads before permanently install my studs in the block. i think its m12x ??? I could be wrong, just guessing. I am looking for the stud-to-block thead size not the upper thread size, just clarifying since the stud-to-block is a coarse thread and top where the nut goes on is finer thread. Thank!-skyler

[SVOfish]

Not to worry, I got it. M12x1.75

[MikeFleming]

Use a normal or bottoming tap only.

If you get 12 x 1.75mm, 10 x 1.5mm, 8 x 1.25mm and 6 x 1.0mm you will cover all of the thread sizes on the 2.3 head and block except the pipe threads. There's several 1/4 NPT holes for the oil passages, and maybe a 3/8 NPT for the oil drain, iirc.

[SVOfish]

Got all of the threads chased and all is well. I was looking over my bores and I see some dark spots that are concerning me. My machinist measured my bores thoroughly (I was standing there while he did so) and said that an overbore was not necessary so we just honed it. I have attached a picture of cylinder 2. Cylinder 3 seems to have the same thing going on just not as much, and I will have to go inspect 1 and 4. I'm just a little concerned as I've never had a block come back (always used the same machine shop and individual ) with the bores looking like this. What causes this, should I be concerned, is it normal/ will it be fine?http://i60.tinypic.com/15dmkqd.jpg

[MikeFleming]

The "dark" sections look like places where the hne did not clean the previously-used surfaces. As long as the measurements are good, and you cannot feel a step with your fingers, and you're using a moly-faced top ring, you should be good to go.

[SVOfish]

I told my machinist I would be running 20-22 psi of boost, the rings that were recommended to me and that are currently installed are total seal t3024 conventional top ring, gapless 2nd ring. Top rings are ductile iron, I do not see anywhere on the data sheet that indicate a moly face coating. Geez I didn't screw up did I ?

[SVOfish]

I do not feel a step while running my fingers on the bores. So that's good news.

[SVOfish]

T3024-45 is the part number on the box. File fit, gapless 2nd

[SVOfish]

Any idea on those rings I have mike?

[MikeFleming]

Any idea on those rings I have mike? Need more specifics. I would not run a non-moly-faced top ring on a used bore, or in a boosted engine. Ever.

There's not many pure iron rings available these days. Get a part number and better description. Pictures? What color?

[MikeFleming]

On another topic, the Total Seal Gapless ring design:

It's a marketing gimmick. I've seen these rings sets used over the last 2+ decades in street and drag engines. While they give great low-pressure leak down numbers, they just don't go down the track any better than normal, gaped rings. A 0.016" gap is equivalent to about 0.0016% of total surface area on a 4" bore, so "gaining" that amount of "leakage" is not even measurable.

Second: Way back when TS GL rings first came out they were installed in the top groove and we quickly learned that the environment was just too hostile, especially in boosted applications. So they got moved to the second slot. And even though they still gave good initial leak down numbers, they interfered with sealing of the top ring.

I had a set of gap-less (GL) second slot rings in one of my TB engines. I didn't like what TS offered for top and oil rings so I used a ceramic-coated top and a Ford/PC-style 3-piece chrome rail expander oil control ring. The first 10K miles were OK, but after that it slowly turned into an oil burner. By 50K miles, had severe upper-end (0.003+") bore wear - probably due to the ceramic top.

My recommendation is a moly-faced top (Dykes style, if available), iron scraper second (no chrome) and a 3-piece PC-style oil control ring.

Remember the job of the oil ring is to PUT oil onto the bores (cooling, lubrication, remove wear materials), the second ring's job is to keep most (96%) of that oil from getting past it to the top ring sealing area and the top ring's primary job is to withstand combustion pressure and live a very long time at high temps, with very little oil.

[svono50]

I agree with Mike on the 'dark' areas, it is the old 'polished' surface finish. The 'bright' areas is where the hone has more completly scuffed the surface and dulled it a bit. No biggie based on the pics that I can see.

I too remember when the gapless styles came out, bad news on the top ring with positive intake pressures! The GN guys I hung around with had nothing but problems on their 3.8's, including cracking the outer land of the top piston surface off in some cases. One friend that had a Chebby 350 running a supercharger and 3-stage nitrous punched out a couple of pistons very soon after getting a 'refresh' on it with gapless rings...expensive mistake. Sometimes 'new technology' doesn't pay off like it was intended to. Coatings these days have more than surpassed other mechanical 'gimmicks' that were brought out over the years.

[SVOfish]

t3024 is the pn, i would have to call my machinest for info on the color etc. I sppreciate the feedback, unfortunetly I asked here a couple of times what rings were recommended. I did not get a response, so i got these. either I am looking in the wrong place, or I just didnt look hard enough, but i could not find a proper material (ductile iron) rings for these 2.3s, there was a sealed power pn floating around that i checked with and it was on backorder (also known as long gone, and will not be produced) and otherwise it seems others were just running the cp pistons and rings. This block is maxed out, it has ford pistons in it, with a 40 oversize yes they are oe ford stamped pistons with a ford part number. so it was either reuse the block (since the bore was within spec) or toss it since its maxed, maybe even over max bore. I can send you pics of the oversize stamped in sae on the top of the pistons and a bore measuring about 3.820. i have messaged total seal about their top ring coatings as well. As far as the marketing gimmick, i dont know. I bought them not for the flashy gapless 2nd ring, but more along the lines of they were still being made, and i could get them for o.e ford pistons. Is there another company that makes a ring that you would recommend readily for the o.e ring groove sizes. or are they custom order? I guess we will see if it blows up or not.

[SVOfish]

Well since the engine is still out, could someone point me in the correct direction on where to purchase rings from? It would be much appreciated, and as always thank you guys for your help before i had major problems.

[MikeFleming]

Briefly looking in their catalog (PDF), I would recommend either the CM or CR series:

(CM) Classic Premium sets features our premium ductile
plasma moly conventional top rings, conventional 2nd rings and
standard tension oil rings. Application: Street, race, mild
nitrous, mild forced induction.

(CML) Classic Premium sets features our premium ductile
plasma moly conventional top rings, conventional 2nd rings and
low tension oil rings. Application: Race.

No idea if they make them specifically in this application (2.0/2.0/4.75mm) and in the size you need. At a minimum make sure the top ring is moly-faced. Yes, it's worth the extra few hours now to swap top rings.

[SVOfish]

edit - email from total seal say my set uses ductile iron plasma moly top rings - called my machinist right before they emailed back and he said the same thing. kudos to total seal for extremly fast email tech support.

[SVOfish]

Okay mike, I will download their PDF and check out those series. I appreciate your help once again!

[MikeFleming]

... my set uses ductile iron plasma moly top rings ... Except for my lack of enthusiams with the gap-less second ring, you're good to go. Just run it like it is.

[SVOfish]

lesson learned on the gapless ring choice. Since its red does that make up for the ring choice ? :)

[svono50]

lesson learned on the gapless ring choice. Since its red does that make up for the ring choice ? :)

...only if the oil rings are coated RED... :p

[MikeFleming]

...only if the oil rings are coated RED... :p Tough crowd!!

[SVOfish]

very!