Engine hard starting

[KevinK]

My 84 GT Turbo does not start 90% onf the time on the first crank. Letting up and trying again, it always fires right up. It does not seem to matter if it’s hot or cold or if it was just turned off. It has about 60K miles. I put new plugs, cap, rotor andd wires on it. It seems to run ok otherwise.

Any ideas?

[Art Vandelay]

If you turn the key on without starting the car, does the fuel pump prime?

[Under Pressure]

I had to replace my Bmap once.

[KevinK]

I really have not noticed hearing the fuel pump noise. It’s a convertible and they are usually noisier. I have waited 30 seconds between key on and start, no difference.

[KevinK]

I had to replace my Bmap once.

I will has to look into this. I don’t know the relationship of this sensor.

[KevinK]

Ok, replaced the Bmap sensor and reset the battery. It cranked a bit like 15-20 seconds, fired and died. Tried it again and the same thing. Third time no start and smelled fuel. Installed the original sensor and still no start. I can smell fuel now so I guess it’s flooded. Will retry in the morning.

[KevinK]

Ok, still no start. Suggestions? I did not mess with much. All the wiring looks ok.

-Removed the Bmap sensor.
-Cleaned up the area under the sensor and removed the battery/cables.
-Installed the new sensor.
-Reinstalled the old sensor.

It ran fine on Friday.

[Mike S]

Pull the codes?

[KevinK]

Pull the codes?

Not yet. I was hoping for a quick fix by putting the old part back in. It was late and I was hoping sitting overnight would clear flooding. I will check for codes and power to the ignition. I had to push it in the driveway until I return from SEMA trip.

[MikeFleming]

Have you checked fuel pressure?

BTW - holding the throttle wide open will clear flood mode.

[KevinK]

Have you checked fuel pressure?

BTW - holding the throttle wide open will clear flood mode.

i have not checked the fuel pressure what should the pressure be 39 psi? I did hold the tb wide open with no luck.

[MikeFleming]

Pressure with engine off, key on should be 30-39 PSIG. If it's LESS THAN 30, then you will have starting issues.

Try cycling the ignition key on, off after two seconds then immediately on again (without cranking) while watching the pressure gauge (may need two peoples), repeat several times to see if the pressure increases. If it does it can indicate a leaking FPR, a bad check valve in the pump and/or a weak pump.

[KevinK]

Thanks. I will check that out. I do have a gauge I used on my 03 when the fuel pump died.

[KevinK]

Ok, checked the fuel pressure and it is 0 psi. I would assume this means the i tank pump is bad? What’s the best brand these days ?

i can heard 1 pump run for about 5 seconds and it’s much easier to hear with the passenger door open. I see maybe 1 psiof pressure increase but no more and no increase when repeating key on. Again, I’m assuming it’s the in tank pump and I don’t have a second person to verify the outside one is indeed running.

Best pump brands? I’m going with stock since it’s not an SVO.

[MikeFleming]

On hte 84 there re two pumps:

An in-tank, low-pressure unit that should make ~6PSIG if it is the only pump running (assuming non-kinked lines, non-plugged filter, etc.)

A chassis-mounted high-pressure pump mounted forward of the right rear wheel on he inside of the chassis rail next to the fuel filter. This pump all by itself (without the in-tank pump working)should be able to make 30 PSIG as long as there is any flow coming from the tank.

If the fuel tank is very low AND the in-tank pump is not working, the HP pump won't get any fuel especially after air gets in that hose between the tank and the HP pump.

BOSH was the OEM supplier for the HP pump,. It includes the check valve on the outlet fitting.

There are several listings on rockauto.com for Ford, 84, Mustang, 2.3L Turbo, GT for both low and high pressure pumps. Be sure to install a new strainer/filter sock on the in-tank pump.

This looks correct for the HP pump:
SPECTRA PREMIUM SP1121 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Failure to install a new fuel strainer (where applicable) will void warranty Info (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3956676&cc=1133660)
Externally Mounted; 2 Fuel Pumps May Be Required; 1 Mounted In-Tank & 1 Externally Mounted
$40.79

BOSCH HP pump:
BOSCH 69100 Electric Fuel Pump Info (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=977789&cc=1133660)
In-Line; Hatchback
$68.79

In-tank pump:
AIRTEX E2485 Includes Tank Seal; Strainer required to validate the warranty Info (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1347108&cc=1133660)
In-Tank; Low Pressure Pump; TO 11/83; Two fuel pumps may be required, one mounted in-tank and one mounted externally.
$29.79

Fuel p[ump strainer/sock for in-tank pump:
CARTER STS2 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Features CleanScreen Technology Info (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=296812&cc=1133660) https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/images/Heart.png
To 11/1983
$3.47

[Kendal Coker]

The high pressure pump on the frame rail will pull through the one in the tank if it is not plugged. I would replace the high pressure one on the frame rail first. I have been buying the cheep ones on e-bay with no problems. If you look close you can find the low pressure in tank ones pretty cheep too.

[KevinK]

Thanks guys for the assistance. I ordered a new high pressure pump, Carter brand. Hope to get it replaced next week.

[KevinK]

Ok, I got the new pump installed. No real issues except it was difficult to get the wire boots over the terminals. I don’t think they planned on using them. Now I have 38 psi fuel pressure at the firewall. Still no start. I held the throttle open as well.

Checked for codes, found none. That is assuming I’m usng the code reader correctly. Nothing with key on and nothing after cranking.

I will check for voltage at the coil next.

[Kendal Coker]

Have you changed the ignition switch. I have had cars do crazy things and that was the problem.

[MikeFleming]

Does the tach needle bounce when cranking?

[Under Pressure]

When you have a SVO you should always have a spare TFI. check the tfi and the wiring down there.

[KevinK]

Does the tach needle bounce when cranking?

The tach needle does not bounce while cranking. It does jump slightly when the key is turned on but goes back to zero and sits there. What does the tach indicate?

[MikeFleming]

The tach needle does not bounce while cranking. It does jump slightly when the key is turned on but goes back to zero and sits there. What does the tach indicate? This points to PIP, TFI, associated wiring and/or the dizzy is not turning (cam belt, stripped dizzy gears, etc.).

[KevinK]

I have a TFI on order. I’m having trouble finding a part number for PIP. I know I should keep One in the car.

[KevinK]

I did some digging into it last night. I found numerous wires with crumbling insulation down at the TFI harness plug. One wire to the knock sensor and another One of the wires going to the ACT were bare. The actual wires seemed ok. I did get a spark down by the TFI plug while testing for voltage. I stopped testing at that point. I cleaned everything up with solvent and opened up the harness to exposed the crumbled insulation. I carefully taped everything up and tried starting. No change.

It was getting late so I only did a couple quick tests. Measured 12 VDC on both the red and green wires at the coil input. This would be ignition power. I see one side runs down to the TFI. I did not measure it but most likely it’s present. Still pretty much points to the TFI.

Not sure why only the exposed wires have crumbling insulation. Maybe something to do with the power steering (heat or oil breaking down).

[Kendal Coker]

The wire problem is standard on 84 svo's. You can actually buy a pigtail with the plug and wires on it to replace the bad one. I have done several.

[KevinK]

Yes, I know the wire insulation was a problem. It must be something related to the environment around it as only the exposed wires are affected.

I got tired of waiting for parts to arrive nextt week. I have to go to out of town to Taiwan next week and need to move some cars around. I replaced the TFI as suggested and it started right up! Thanks guys for your help!

it looks like it was still the original part. Was’t the TFI a recall by Ford? I know my SVO was never done.

[KevinK]

Ok, here we go again. Car has been running fine for the most part. Probably only have 200-400 miles on the new tfi and fuel pump. I was driving down the freeway, little to no boost and it just cut out. Every thing looks ok under the hood. Cap and rotor look ok. Is it possible the TFI failed again? I have some fuel pressure and hear the pump running.

Waiting for a tow home....

[Under Pressure]

check the alternator wiring and makr sure you're charging. If you haven't done it yet. change the ignition switch in the steering column.

[Mike S]

Is it possible the TFI failed again?

Did you replace the PIP when you replaced the TFI? Is the TFI rotated where it is close the the lower intake?

You may need to perform the wiggle test on your harness once you get it running again to see if there is a wiring issue.

[KevinK]

I did not replace the pip. From what I read, it required pulling the distributor and I was trying to avoid that. I tried wiggling wires but no luck. 8 did tape up all the wires at the TFI. There is one area at the diode which might be bare but being a green wire, I think it’s ground. I’ll have to check for power at the TFI plug.

i took it to get smogged on Friday but the HCs were high at 25 mph. The spout was unplugged at that time so we were around the wires. The next day I drove it 18 miles on the freeway and it just cut out.

[KevinK]

The weather has been bad and not too much free time. I did test for 12 Vdc going to the TFI. That checked out. I also replaced the TFI again. Still no fire.

I guess I will go thru the whole list again.

[rodster]

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[KevinK]

Ok, I finally had some time between rain storms. I checked the fuel pressure and 12 Vdc going to the TFI. I previously did a visual on the distributor car and rotor. I decided to pull the timing belt cover and found the belt a bit loose. On closer inspection, the teeth were missing at the crank pulley. Put on my spare belt and set the timing and all is good. My wife was quite impressed.

Next up is a new muffler and tail pipe.