trials and tribulations of the 84s

[Alex L]

hey all,

well the pair of 84s just double teamed me with blowby issues. mine's puking half a quart into the stinger style puke tank from the crankcase in 30 miles of 10psi mixed driving; this was after doing a few 16psi datalog pulls, and it started running a bit rough on part throttle. of course, once it cooled down, everything is _fine_. im thinking its either the HG blew out, or the deck isnt sealing correctly.

jayme's started bogging and missing yesterday, and i just pulled off the VAM, and it was _full_ of oil. same situation when i first got it, but it had not returned once i turned the wick down from the 17psi it was at. been running 12-13psi without issue for a few hundred miles, and it decides to act up this weekend of any of em..

off to the leakdown test they go this evening.

$random_curse @ $random_deity.

--Alex

[SVOTim]

hey all,

well the pair of 84s just double teamed me with blowby issues. mine's puking half a quart into the stinger style puke tank from the crankcase in 30 miles of 10psi mixed driving; this was after doing a few 16psi datalog pulls, and it started running a bit rough on part throttle. of course, once it cooled down, everything is _fine_. im thinking its either the HG blew out, or the deck isnt sealing correctly.

jayme's started bogging and missing yesterday, and i just pulled off the VAM, and it was _full_ of oil. same situation when i first got it, but it had not returned once i turned the wick down from the 17psi it was at. been running 12-13psi without issue for a few hundred miles, and it decides to act up this weekend of any of em..

off to the leakdown test they go this evening.

$random_curse @ $random_deity.

--Alex

So, Sunday Autox unlikely for yall...Bummer dude. I just discovered oil in the intake track, built up pretty good. Saw it as I was installing my 65 mm throttle body and rebuilt turbo from Charlie. So I slapped a new Motorcraft PCV valve and a check valve in the line. Still need to swap out the valve stem seals as well. Waiting to see the results after AutoX Sunday. My original rebuilt motor install may be in the very near future. Problem is this motor still pulls awesome, runs good, compression was good, and in a leak down test worst offender was 11%, just a little puff of smoke hear and there...

Hopefully you can get something going to see you all Sunday...

Tim

[MikeFleming]

Cleaning oil residue from the intake track on a Type 4 PCV system is considered normal, periodic maintenance. You waited too long.

NEVER let a car know it's going to an auto-x before the event. Sometimes they will revolt ahead of the event.

[Brenda]

It just wants some love and affection

:fi_av_smiles_y_9:

[Alex L]

It just wants some love and affection

well, they got some rough love this weekend. drove em down, beat the living snot on a hot auto-x course, and drove em back. no muss, no fuss. :whew:

Thanks to DaveS and family for putting up with us; especially for the sat night 'please let this pass tech' wrenching session. jayme's 84 is in much better running order now. next up for her's is to get a 7.5 rear end swapped back in, hooking the stock boost control system back up, and beg/borrow/steal some koni reds so she can be officially be in G-Stock.

as for mine, fixed a few long time leaks, and found a few more. (turbo drains, shift selector arm bushing, and tailshaft seal, oh my) both of em have crankcase evact/vent issues, but its been like that for years now, not in that big of a rush to fix em just as the points season kicks in for the SCCA. next steps are to yank the LA3/QH setup, and slap the MS3x in; after seeing SVOTim's new hybrid launch outta the hole (and cut 5 second faster times on a 55 second course!!) , there is definitely a new turbo in the works, the HE341 is just too much for auto-x (but its a @#$@#ing BLAST on the open road). after my wallet recovers from the unscheduled megasqurt purchase, ill be giving charlie a call :D

[SVOTim]

Glad you two made it down, and home with no problems. I'll give Jayme props for placing second in GStock her first time out, that was awesome. Dave better watch out...

[Alex L]

I'll give Jayme props for placing second in GStock her first time out, that was awesome. Dave better watch out...

she was walking on clouds yesterday ;)

dived right in this evening; pulled the LA3 out and mounted up the MS3 under the passenger seat. this might take a while...

702

also, this car is going on a serious diet once its running again. inner door hardware is getting moved over to jayme's, and the battery will get relocated to behind the passenger seat (need to check SCCA rulebook on that one, IIRC its ok as long as its vented outside the passenger compartment or using a sealed battery); i think that way i can fit tires in the trunk area without too much fuss. most of the sound deadner is gooey, so it'll get stripped and replaced with some nice dynamat in selected positions. who knows, might even put some new carpet in (gasp!)

[Raven855]

What are your MS specs? Using a wide Band? Sequencial fuel? What about spark? what version?

[MikeFleming]

(need to check SCCA rulebook on that one, IIRC its ok as long as its vented outside the passenger compartment or using a sealed battery); 17) Any wet-cell battery moved from the manufacturer’s original location shall be in a non-conductive, marine-type container or equivalent and the “hot” terminal shall be insulated. All batteries (on-board power supplies) shall be attached securely to the frame or chassis structure independent of the marine-type container. NOTE: This will allow the use of gel cell or dry cell (AGM) batteries without a nonconductive, marine-type container where applicable.

BTW - We have the 2012 Solo Rule Book on the site here:

http://www.svocop.com/Articles/2012_Solo_Rules_February_reduced.pdf

[Alex L]

What are your MS specs? what version?
ms3x 3.57


Using a wide Band?
yup, AEM. also have a narrow band installed that'll be used for closed loop once the VE table has been massaged over; the narrow band is much more responsive then the wide band.


Sequential fuel? What about spark?

batch fire low-z fuel for starters, just running off the TFI for now. eventually it'll get a crank trigger, ditch the dizzy for a cam pos sensor from a dual plug motor, and go full sequential fuel/spark with LS logic level coils and the hi-z 55s ive got sitting on the shelf.


17) Any wet-cell battery moved from the manufacturer’s original location shall be in a non-conductive, marine-type container or equivalent and the “hot” terminal shall be insulated.

check and check already with the 'trunk' mount. i'll need to check the rules over at the local concrete dyno, i think they follow NHRA for test and tune night/saturday bracket, and it has just slightly different requirements. not that big of a deal currently.

[Raven855]

How are you configuring the low Z injectors? Resistors or something like the JBPerf boards? Are you planning on using Can bus? Maf or SD?

[Alex L]

How are you configuring the low Z injectors? Resistors or something like the JBPerf boards?

planned on using the PWM limiting batch fire drivers off the main board; but now im thinking i might just put the 55lb hi-zs in now and run the extra wires and save me some pain getting it to idle.


Are you planning on using Can bus? Maf or SD?

no plans/needs for canbus right now. been running SD on the LA3 for a while, so ill keep it that way.

[Alex L]

BTW - We have the 2012 Solo Rule Book on the site here:

http://www.svocop.com/Articles/2012_Solo_Rules_February_reduced.pdf

oh son of a ... talked to the SCCA tech, and we're supposed to be running in CP and not EP, which requires a 52mm restirctor plate pre-turbo. guess they didnt hear the turbo part when they classed me in EP years ago. :hurpderp:

gave charlie a call, and told em 'give me what he gave SVOTim, that thing HAULS...' also, it has a 52mm inlet, so yay, no plate needed. so the T3 is going for a trip down to Florida.

[MikeFleming]

Make your own plate - about 2 inches long with LARGE radius edges coming into/out of the center that is exactly 52mm.

Remember the IMSA GTP series? A 1000HP turbo engine with a 57mm restrictor reduced the power to ~850HP in 1988. Then in 1989 the restrictor went to 54mm and reduced power to ~750HP. So with a 52mm restrictor you should be good to about 600 HP.

[Patrick]

Heh heh. I made a turbo inlet restrictor once that would disappear at the beginning of the event and reappear at the end. FIA had diagrams of how they expected it to be made and installed. It met the letter of the rules completely.

[MikeFleming]

Heh heh. I made a turbo inlet restrictor once that would disappear at the beginning of the event and reappear at the end. FIA had diagrams of how they expected it to be made and installed. It met the letter of the rules completely. Isn't that officially referred to as [Re]Movable Aerodynamic Devices?

[Patrick]

I prefer "Quick Change".

Handy at a toll booth, as well.

[SVOTim]

oh son of a ... talked to the SCCA tech, and we're supposed to be running in CP and not EP, which requires a 52mm restirctor plate pre-turbo. guess they didnt hear the turbo part when they classed me in EP years ago. :hurpderp:

gave charlie a call, and told em 'give me what he gave SVOTim, that thing HAULS...' also, it has a 52mm inlet, so yay, no plate needed. so the T3 is going for a trip down to Florida.

Glad to hear that about the turbo, Whew. I wanted no part of that stupid fast LS6 Miata in XP class!! How in the heck did I come up with EP, guess I was thinking was in ESP, couple mods, go to EP. Don't work that way, huh. So I guess, here I come CP Class... There was no entries for CP last week, looking good for top finish.

[Raven855]

So I guess, here I come CP Class... There was no entries for CP last week, looking good for top finish.
So you are taking Dave's approach, "move to the next class so the wife doesn't beat me!" I like the avitar by the way.....

[SVOTim]

So you are taking Dave's approach, "move to the next class so the wife doesn't beat me!" I like the avitar by the way.....

Funny you mention Dave, I've got him scratching head last week about modifiying his SVO.... doubtful, but I got him thinking.

[Alex L]

doubtful, but I got him thinking.

uh huh, thinking 'wow, sure is nice when it starts up every time'

[Alex L]

well, it lives on the megasquirt. just got a few little things to tidy up tomorrow: fan control 'noid was hooked up to ground and not 12v power, and had to pull apart part of the pretty harness. once i got the injector offset figured out (woooo wee, those 83lbers are finicky) squared, it fired right up. after a bit of warm up to 150, kicked on VE live, and it settled down into a clean idle @ 1000rpm after a few minutes of adjustment.

time for a celebratory beer. :D

[Bob Holmes]

:like2:

[Alex L]

:like2:

premature thumbs up. got the low end of the ve table all nice and purdy like, but ive got a nagging issue of a jumping tach under load @ 3500rpm+. engine doesn't change behavior, tach just gets all jumpy and bounces up to 5000rpm. beyond that, it drives like a DREAM; got a bit of a stumble off idle when its under 150 ECT; not to worried about it, as im just using base RPMdot/MAPdot enrichment while getting the base steady state maps dialed in, and not the wall wetting EAE erichment. that comes later.

think i might remove the TFI completely and run the PIP signal back on its existing harness, and just move the SPOUT over to the coil and drive it directly from the MS3. one less thing to worry about going wonkey. (and more spare parts for the wife's 84)

yeah, teach me to tape the harness back up once it passes the subdivision drive test. :facepalm:

[Alex L]

jayme's 84 got us down and back from the lousville auto-x last weekend with only one emergency repair in grid (blown BCS hose).

as for mine, change of direction. after re-re-discovering that ive got an underlying spark scatter issue, and endlessly putting off the inevitable, time to quit screwing around. overnighted a bunch of go-fast goodies today and should be up and running wens, with a few days to get stuff dialed in before the auto-x school next weekend.

dizzy going bye-bye, replaced with a EDIS CPS stub and a 36-1 crank wheel.
later duraspark/TFI, hello LS2/Truck full sequential coil near plug.
sayonara, omghuge 83pph injectors, ohayo FAST 60pph hi-z full sequential injection.

was saving my pennies up for getting both the rear ends rebuilt and getting a turbo built by charlie to replace the he341, but that'll have to wait till winter.

in other news, dad just got his lift installed, so i can fix a few lingering exhaust and transmission issues as well.

[Patrick]

Funny you mention Dave, I've got him scratching head last week about modifiying his SVO.... doubtful, but I got him thinking.


What makes you think that he is thinking about modifying hisSVO?

[Raven855]

well, it lives on the megasquirt. just got a few little things to tidy up tomorrow: fan control 'noid was hooked up to ground and not 12v power, and had to pull apart part of the pretty harness. once i got the injector offset figured out (woooo wee, those 83lbers are finicky) squared, it fired right up. after a bit of warm up to 150, kicked on VE live, and it settled down into a clean idle @ 1000rpm after a few minutes of adjustment.

time for a celebratory beer. :D

What did you do on the injectors? From what I have read, if you use the defaults it won't tune idle. How many squirts,4? And with an idle pw of ? How about offset? And peak and hold times?

[Alex L]

What did you do on the injectors?
put them on the shelf.


From what I have read, if you use the defaults it won't tune idle. How many squirts,4? And with an idle pw of ? How about offset? And peak and hold times?

it would work with 2 squirts, or 4 squirts simultaneous, but 2 idled much better. either way, injectors were too big, and the idle pulsewidth was more based on offset rather then the VE table. total pain to get a steady idle, as when you apply load, RPM drops, air fuel ratio gets richer, causing it to drop RPM more, causing richer.. even a very slight change in offset would require massive changes to the VE table up to 3000rpm. according to the vendor documentation, they had a 1ms offset; had to run em with a .85ms offset to get it fired, and to pass the 2/4 squirt sanity check. which is why they are getting pulled out and replaced with hi-z, which can be driven full sequential from the ms3x, single squirt, closer to a linear 2ms idle pulse-width.

the way it should be.

[SVOTim]

What makes you think that he is thinking about modifying hisSVO?

Hum! Sounds like you got the skinny on this topic? Do suppose it doesn't have to be his SVO. When there are a few in the corral. Dunno, I don't really see him doing it, seems he really likes these cars just the way they are. Just that when I was leaving the last AutoX, he approached me and mention how well my car did and that maybe it's time to make some changes... maybe. Just throwing it out there. Hello Dave, Dave, any comments?

[Alex L]

well, apparently i pissed someone off. my 'overnight' delivery from USPS, yeah, delayed till tomorrow. last time i got something shipped USPS overnight, it took em 3 days. @#$@#$ oh, and the boneyard, every single LS engine was picked or pulled clean. not a single @#$@#$ coil near plug harness/bracket to be found in the whole lot.

so im pretty much screwed for this weekend. woo.

[Raven855]

it would work with 2 squirts, or 4 squirts simultaneous, but 2 idled much better. either way, injectors were too big, and the idle pulsewidth was more based on offset rather then the VE table. total pain to get a steady idle, as when you apply load, RPM drops, air fuel ratio gets richer, causing it to drop RPM more, causing richer.. even a very slight change in offset would require massive changes to the VE table up to 3000rpm. according to the vendor documentation, they had a 1ms offset; had to run em with a .85ms offset to get it fired, and to pass the 2/4 squirt sanity check. which is why they are getting pulled out and replaced with hi-z, which can be driven full sequential from the ms3x, single squirt, closer to a linear 2ms idle pulse-width.

the way it should be.

From my notes I have that for WesK who has the 83s, to get it to idle the offset was down around .5-6, pulse width was 1.1, 4 squirts. I ask this because I have a MS project in the works with the 80ish injectors. I have 1 more "technical" problem to get my arms around and understand before I am willing to move forward though. Want to get rid of those 83s?

[Alex L]

Want to get rid of those 83s?

if the 60s work out the way i think they will, sure, but i don't wanna hear any whining about their idle quality. ;) tfs-89083-1, low-z less then 10k miles, 2 and a half bills shipped. im sure they'd be sweet if you can run em semi sequential batch fire; even better if you've got an r-box and can run em full sequential (~60% DC feeding the HE341 @ 20psi @ 6000). my goals have changed over the years, and rather then flat out top end power with an option for e85 , looking for more drivability, responsiveness, and converter/boost flashability outta the hole at this point, with an end goal of 300-350 hp with a t4/3 evergreen hybrid special.

you're not looking to buy a he341 as well are ya? ;)

[Alex L]

monthly update:

jayme's 84 got a new fan controller circuit, alternator, and regulator. battery kept overcharging. still spewing oil into the intake, but its getting pretty routine to clean it out.

my 84 blew out the intermediate band servo on the c4, spewed a few quarts of tranny fluid all over the hot exhaust. that was fun to clean up. replaced with a PA billet servo. talk about neck snapping shifts.. keep thinking the seat back is going to break when its shifted WOT. installed DIYAutotune boost control 'noid, but hasn't been dialed in. swapped the 1.9 out for the bo 1.5, and its much happier with the converter installed straight up, but still not flashing up on the footbrake.

[Alex L]

stupid dizzys... PIP exciter (or whatever the magnet assembly is called) retaining bracket decided to let loose. at least it conveniently broke down right in front of the markland dam visitor center parking lot.

jayme's car was fine of course.

[Alex L]

weee, new toys... t61 cold side/stg3 t3 turbine, .48 hot housing, with the usual charlie magic thrown in. inducer diameter is a bit bigger then what i was hoping for.. ill worry about the CP restirctor plates once someone throws the money to protest it.

ps: yes, i went there. no more of this 'lets try and get a holset designed for a 6.2L truck engine to spool a 2.3L outta the hole' shenanigans.

[SVOTim]

PROTEST!!!!

Naw, not really.:) That there is a nice piece of work. Got it in the car yet? Doesn't look like I'll be making the 08/19/12 Autox event in Louisville. Hoping to make the last 2 points events. Good luck with the new Turbo.

[Alex L]

PROTEST!!!!

COUNTER PROTEST!! if i get bumped to XP, then im dragging you with me!

not in the car yet, just got it in the mail yesterday. waiting on a new downpipe to arrive, and need to source the proper oil feed adapters. thinking next week.

[Patrick]

That's almost as big as Mitch's turbo.

He had to notch the strut tower to make his turbo fit.

I hear that the size of the turbo is an inverse proportion to the size of the ...

never mind.

[Alex L]

That's almost as big as Mitch's turbo.

He had to notch the strut tower to make his turbo fit.

hrm.. well, the compressor housing is about the same size as my he341, and its got a fuzz under an inch clearance to the strut. worse case ill stick a anti-rock chain on it.

its actually setup on the cold side to be sized for a big valve 2.5, but should work a LOT better then the he341 on my mostly stock setup. once the rest of the engine 'catches up' to the turbo, i can open the AR up on the housing from .48 to whatever if needed and run an external gate. picking up a turbocoupe shell that comes with 2 longblocks and a few extra heads later this weekend, have a batch of go-fast goodies coming in from bo, and a center mount log coming in (eventually....) from rivercityspeed. need to yank the 2.5 block / crank outta the barn and get it cleaned up and inspected. if the dual plug head isnt cracked, kinda want to go with it rather then a D-port for the symmetrical intake runners, but im not sure how well the LMDP heads take to the oversize valves. worst case i gut an E6 and intakes and call it a day. :shrug:

[Chalky]

is that turbocoupe an 87 or 88???

[Alex L]

is that turbocoupe an 87 or 88???

87. you looking for a donor or a roller? AFAIK, the 'only' thing wrong with this one is the motor is out on the stand... but that has yet to be confirmed via inspection.

[Alex L]

mmm, blue rotor cap with about 2000 miles on it, looks tasty yes? om nom nom nom (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DNwlsfsx_Ic/ULAQbqq42LI/AAAAAAAABRA/hNfxlVAT_PU/s2048/12+-+1)