Fuel system question

[TheSVOTrust]

Working on a stock 1984 SVO and having a problem with no fuel to the engine. Car had sat for some time and the injectors were replaced, bad gas removed from the tank and had been running well. Now after sitting for a few years it doesn't get fuel. Have check the Fuel pump relay - OK.
Have tried to "ground at the star" plug and put 12V to the frame rail pump - doesn't pump.
Battery is fully charged, and the car runs on starting fluid.
I've searched and see that the inline pumps can get gummed up.
Looking for info doing more tests OR just replacing the inline pump and filter (filter never was changed)
Car is often tracked - would a Walbro be the best choice

Mark

[Alex L]

Have check the Fuel pump relay - OK.

by 'OK' do you mean when you energize the relay it 'clicks', or it 'clicks' and the pump runs?


Have tried to "ground at the star" plug and put 12V to the frame rail pump - doesn't pump.

the test harness is ran straight to the relay; see previous question. if the relay clicks when you ground out at the relay harness, but not at the test connector, ohm out between the relay and test connectors.


I've searched and see that the inline pumps can get gummed up.

they can; but usually it'll manifest at first as the car falling on its face/backfiring under load/rpm. i know jayme's 84 would start and idle just fine, but as soon as you got into boost, it'd break up.


Looking for info doing more tests OR just replacing the inline pump and filter (filter never was changed)

R&R of the fuel filter is likely a good idea no matter what the electrical testing comes out with. if you get a brown sludge coming out of both ends of the filter, drop the tank for inspection, and id take a real close look at those injectors.

slapping a fuel pressure gauge on it wouldnt hurt either.


Car is often tracked - would a Walbro be the best choice

unless you're pushing higher boost then stock, there really isnt any good reason to 'upgrade' the stock dual pump setup. (assuming early dual pump as you mentioned the frame rail pump) the 255lph unit is not a quiet unit by any strech of the imagination; i can hear mine whirrr from a block away.

[Patrick]

Have check the Fuel pump relay - OK.

The relay just making clicking noises does not necessarily mean that it's "OK". It needs 12+ volts output to the pump.


Have tried to "ground at the star" plug and put 12V to the frame rail pump - doesn't pump.

With ignition switch "on", correct?


Looking for info doing more tests OR just replacing the inline pump and filter (filter never was changed)
Car is often tracked - would a Walbro be the best choice

The filter was never changed? Change the filter. I'd prefer the Bosch pump over the Walbro every time.

Do both pumps make noise at "key on" (as if they actually are running) for a second or two, or are either of them silent? Noise means it's getting voltage and ground.

Does the in-tank transfer pump move gas to the main external pump? If so, good. If not, check for cracks in the hose between the fuel pump and the fuel pickup tube.at the flange where the fuel level sender mounts. It could be that the pressure pump is sucking air through the cracks, rather than receiving fuel from the transfer pump.

You can bench test the in-tank unit by that point after dropping the tank to remove the sender/pickup assembly. This would be a good time to install a new fuel pickup sock as well.

Once you get known good fuel transfer up to the main pump, check the main pump at "Key on" for noise. If silent, check for voltage at the harness connector. If no voltage, check for continuity of the terminals to the relay. Locate and repair any open circuits. If you have a known good pump, you can plug it in at the harness connector and compare operation with the suspect unit.

Please note direction of flow before completely replacing the external pump. If the two wires get inadvertantly swapped at the pump, the pump will run backwards.


(OK I'll proof read this a bit later and check for mistakes. What did I leave out?)

[TheSVOTrust]

Well now I do have to Redo some tests !
When grounding out the star plug (for the fuel pump) I can't say I had the ignition on !

Which is the wire to ground for the fuel pump.

Reading the some other threads I see you can reverse the wires just to see if the pump is jammed and if it will pump.
RIGHT NOW there is no fuel pressure at the rail - haven't been able to get pump to pump or gas to flow!

As soon as someone replies with the wire to ground or tomorrow I will drop the car and try 12V to the rail pump and grounding it too (Only used the positive wire before) !

Thanks
Mark

[Patrick]

Got ya covered!

687

[TheSVOTrust]

Thank you ! I will RETRY tomorrow and provide followup as to results. (Really wanted to try things like this - before removing pump or pumps)
Mark
P.S. But I do intend to replace fuel filter - I know that fuel with 10% methanol can EAT filter media

[DaveS]

The filter was never changed? Change the filter. I'd prefer the Bosch pump over the Walbro every time.

Glad to hear this...you don't hear it often.
I went with the Bosch pump (it is a direct parts house replacement for stock) and couldn't be happier...but then I'm running stock everything.

[MikeFleming]

That same BOSCH pump twin pump system was used on the 1978+ Porsche 930. Good to 450HP on those cars so it's certainly good enough for little Ford engine.

mark - NO fuel pressure either means that both pumps are not running, both pumps are bad, or there is a serious restriction.

The in-tank pump will make ~6 PSIG at the fuel rail is the HP pump is not running.

As far as applying reverse voltage to the HP pump to see if it "jammed" - by the time it gets that bad it needs to be replaced.

[TheSVOTrust]

UPDATE : Done with testing ! Can't get anything from the rail pump, with power directly to it. Coming apart I'm sure I'll find some nice crud and will post photos.
Mark
P.S. Reverse voltage did nothing !

[TheSVOTrust]

So I REFUSE to buy a pump - as I'm wasn't convinced it was BOTH pumps ! SO with the pump off and GOOD 12V to it - it does work ! (I got it pumping back and forth) So I figure I need to change the filter and I'll blow low pressure into the tank line. Glad I did - all I hear was AIR !!

I guess I need to look into the voltage regulator on the dash ! It reads 3/4 full -which I thought was strange. (Getting to old to remember that when I dropped the tank and changed the injectors I put less than a Gallon in) But I did change the filter last time, changed it again. Got some red stuff out so the media could be braking up.

Off to get 5 Gal of race fuel !
Mark

[MikeFleming]

P.S. Reverse voltage did nothing ! Remove that test from your toolbox. Nothing good will ever come from it.

[Patrick]

UPDATE : Done with testing ! Can't get anything from the rail pump, with power directly to it.


SO with the pump off and GOOD 12V to it - it does work !

You keep mentioning 12V power but not continuity to ground. The battery positive wire is only half of the circuit.

[TheSVOTrust]

Yes I did use both the ground and the positive from 12V source.

BASICALLY I "lost the prime" to both pumps ! (As Mike said "probably going out") Wasn't out of gas 100% - had to siphon and prime rail pump and suck/spit tank to prime tank pump. Now that I got it running I put a pressure gauge on it and it is at 32 PSI at idle rises to 40 as you rev it. I didn't drive with gauge on it , under load. I think I am going to get a pump (Carlisle or Ebay) and replace it.

It is the stock e2000 pump from 1983 - my guess is the car could benefit from TWO new pumps but will just start with the rail one for now.

Thank you for your efforts - kind of nice to have support for this. I know I've answered many questions over the years -but this had me stumped.
Mark

[Patrick]

E2000 is not a Bosch part number. That is an A/C Delco replacement! It is nowhere near the pump as a Bosch in flow capacity or pressure output. Take a pic of the E2000 and we will compare it with a true Bosch pump. E2000 has no identification on it at the electrical terminals as to which terminal is positive or negative.

[TheSVOTrust]

Good NOW I CAN replace it !
How about this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-69100-Electric-Fuel-Pump-/260817456993?fits=Submodel:SVO&hash=item3cb9ee8f61&item=260817456993&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_104

Bosch 69100 BUT I don't think that is better than the E2000 for pressure. Like the Walbro GLS392

Mark

[Patrick]

Your concern should be for volume, not pressure. Any of these pumps surpass the preessure that the stock fuel system produces. You did say that this is for a stock unmodified engine, right?

[TheSVOTrust]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Original-Bosch-Fuel-Pump-0580254979-0-580-254-979-Porsche-911-930-928-/110884577860?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d13c6244&vxp=mtr#ht_842wt_1048

Probably better huh !
Mark

[Raven855]

If you are looking for a pump at the top end of things try the Bosch 044! For something with just a little more volume the 190 Walbro would work. E2000 is 155LPH, the 190 is 190lph, the Walbro 255 is 255lph and the Bosch044 is 300lph at 72.5 psi.

[Patrick]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Original-Bosch-Fuel-Pump-0580254979-0-580-254-979-Porsche-911-930-928-/110884577860?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d13c6244&vxp=mtr#ht_842wt_1048

Probably better huh !
Mark

That looks more like the original one!

[Raven855]

Be careful buying off eBay. There are some Chinese knockoffs of the Walbro and the Bosch pumps!

[Patrick]

I ditto Raven855's observation. Stay away from Ebay knockoffs.

[Kendal Coker]

Glad you got it running Mark.

[Meotchh]

Not yet mentioned here, but you can also check for the resistance of the in-tank pump (no power connected) without removing the tank or the pump. The stock pump should read 4ohms +/-20%. This is a quick way to test if the in-tank pump is connected. If it is open, one or both of the connections could be off. If it is shorted replace the pump. If it is open but neither connection is off check it directly at the pump. If it is still open (unlikely but not impossible) replace the pump. If you have proper resitance at the stock pump but not through the harness, check for opens/breaks in the harness.

After market high volume pumps will read approximately 1.75ohms. For those not familure with ohms law, lower resistance will yeild higher current draw. Higher current draw in the case of the pump will yeild higher volume.

[TheSVOTrust]

Hi

Well I got a New Bosch inline pump for the 1984 car that currently has a E2000 AC delco pump.

I'm expecting that the fuel line brass fitting for the two pumps will be different ! (Either a SAE/Metric different OR TOTALLY DIFFERENT STYLE)

Can anyone suggest the correct ends for the Bosch pump? (anyone have a bad pump with ends available if I need them)?

Mark
P.S. Will pay and trade SVO items if you need them

[MikeFleming]

I haz stock 84 HP pump (dead) with wiring, bracket, pump-to-filter hose, mounting bolts, etc. Pay for shipping and it's yours.

1048
1049

1050

1051

1052

[TheSVOTrust]

I haz stock 84 HP pump (dead) with wiring, bracket, pump-to-filter hose, mounting bolts, etc. Pay for shipping and it's yours.

1048
1049

1050

1051

1052

So do you think I will need the ends???? If I do I will take it (but really just need the fittings).

Mark
P.S. I say trade for a T Shirt but I deliver them and loose money on every one ! haha

[MikeFleming]

It's all or nothing. Whole box only.

I gots lots of shirts.

[TheSVOTrust]

It's all or nothing. Whole box only.

I gots lots of shirts.

Well after 6 hours and 6 stops and "drilling brass and retapping in metric" I GIVE UP!!!

Sent my address in PM Mike. THanks for sending it out.

Mark
P.S. I hope things appear smaller in the photo! My new bosch pump seems fatter !

[TheSVOTrust]

STILL working on this thing !!

Got the pump from Mike - turns out the fittings aren't the same size as the Bosch Pump I got !
(Thanks Mike for the effort - I will pay you for the effort - along with the change to drive when this thing is fixed)

I now know that the
E2000 uses external fuel barbs
Factory Bosch has smaller metric (probably m10 and m12 internal thread 1.25)
Porsche 930 uses larger metric (m12 and M14 1.25 internal)

So I'm am back to all the fittings - but did get it in and off the lift. Runs great - just not sure I can take the "Macgyver" work.

Mark

[Robertosvo]

Mark

I know you are onto working on the fittings to make it fit
did you ever get the wiring end sorted out?
did you check the inertia switch? just a thought

[Raven855]

STILL working on this thing !!

Got the pump from Mike - turns out the fittings aren't the same size as the Bosch Pump I got !
(Thanks Mike for the effort - I will pay you for the effort - along with the change to drive when this thing is fixed)

I now know that the
E2000 uses external fuel barbs
Factory Bosch has smaller metric (probably m10 and m12 internal thread 1.25)
Porsche 930 uses larger metric (m12 and M14 1.25 internal)

So I'm am back to all the fittings - but did get it in and off the lift. Runs great - just not sure I can take the "Macgyver" work.

Mark

So what were the parts that finally made it work?

[TheSVOTrust]

yeah wiring wasn't an issue
rail pump was e2000 and gummed up
this is on the 4995 mile macTools car
I should have known as I replaced gummie injectors years ago

now I just want to eliminate the 7 adapters
I drilled ,retapped and finally got sealed !

Looks like Russell may make some m12/14 with
Ford EFI ends
I'm ok for this weekend (getting all cars out a garage)

mark

[Chalky]

I'm ok for this weekend (getting all cars out a garage)

We expect pics and video!!!!!!!

[TheSVOTrust]

We expect pics and video!!!!!!!

Chalky - Just for you !

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/photo34.jpg

Mark
P.S. Guess I will have to post a video now !

[Patrick]

Holy crap, they're multiplying ! ! ! !

[MikeFleming]

Holy crap, they're multiplying ! ! ! ! He parks them too close together.

[Chalky]

Did you buy the 85 on eBay?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[TheSVOTrust]

Did you buy the 85 on eBay?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Yeah
Have to thank YOU for the heads up !

That car is the MAC TOOLS Giveaway 1985 car from the Aug. 1st to Sept 15th sale promo (in the posters). Ordered as a 9l first day of production - it went to Royal Oak Ford (same dealer delivery as race car). Picked up and painted by same painter at Bo Jax Automotive.

It is kind of neat having the pair "reunited" . Did a little work cleaning up underside, brakes and fuel system. Need to do valve seals. Kind of funny I had that 85.5 Comp Prep that I didn't restore "because I didn't want to use my NOS parts" - NOW this thing will get some (I guess)

I may choose to purchase/trade NOS parts for used parts for it. It doesn't need NOS stuff IMO.

Mark
P.S. Chalky - maybe I do want the assembly line shocks back !

[Chalky]

Bastard......you suck!!!! !:):):):):)

Glad it went to a good home and bummed i didn't have the cash. Now, start a thread with more pics and details and maybe we can talk about my NOS stash.

[TheSVOTrust]

Hi

Well I have giving up on trying to use the Bosch 044 pump I now have close to $300 invested in !
Mike sent me an old pump (thinking I could use the Bundy style ends)

1) NOT CHANGING CAR TO AN
2) Mike's pump leaks at the body (can't use)

I am posting here (and will do a wanted ad)

If anyone has a GOOD (1984/85) Original Bosch Rail fuel pump that they can get to me ASAP. (Bonus if you are going to Sturgis)
Will buy, trade or "owe a favor" (including dental credit in your area)
Please consider sending. (If I don't get the fuel leaks fix I won't run the car in Sturgis)

Mark Haas
5497 Highlawn Way
Brighton MI 48114

[TheSVOTrust]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/SVO%20Photos/photo45.jpg

Forth time was a charm !! BUt it is nice to have a car that isn't leaking fuel and repaired with the correct Ford parts. (I really didn't want to show my "MaGeiver Fittings".

I didn't use the NOS bracket as it is different than the assembly line part. (Kind of the same attitude I take with early Mustang restoration).
Nothing worse than a bunch of service parts on a car that with a little more effort would be all original.

Mark
P.S. No reason not to make it to Sturgis now. I've even got a guest driver (maybe) - does he have to sleep with me?

[brownsvo]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/SVO%20Photos/photo45.jpg

P.S. I've even got a guest driver (maybe) - does he have to sleep with me?


My rules state that no one shall drive my car unless im sleeping with them. Im assuming everyone works like i do since i consider myself normal.


case in point, first girlfriend broke the mirror off my first mustang.. she stopped driving it and i stopped sleeping with her to protect my mustang from further harm. :)

[TheSVOTrust]

When I said "sleep" - I meant "after a long day or wrenching on cars, running autocross - eating and drinking with friends and talking until the wee hours of the night" does he have to get his own room ? (Cause I'm ok with passing out on the floor)

Mark

[Chalky]

It got there already?!?!?! That was quick. Glad to help you out mate and good to know the car WILL make it to Sturgis.

[Meotchh]

Great! Bring it on to Sturgis Mark. We will have an extra air matress available if we have an additional occupant. Plus, Pat will be sleeping in the litter box. That leaves another open bed & one less person in the bathrooms.

[Raven855]

I am updating this thread.
I had to replace the external fuel pump on the 1B. After testing, I found that the stock fuel system was not keeping up with engine demand. I was at approximately 240HP. I ordered a Walbro GSL392 with an install kit PN GLC610. This is basically an external 255LPH Walbro and the 2 items cost $125 minus the shipping. I ordered from here http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/ext_pump.html. I changed out the fuel pump and filter and it took about an hour total to replace. I have used a Bosch 044 pump before, but got it with an install kit. With all the trouble Mark had, I thought this was a good alternative. They had a nice fuel surge tank for use with the Bosch 044 too if you are road racing or a serious Cone Head, just wasn't in the budget right now.