Spindle/A-arms

[Bdbys59]

Ok, I did a search LOL,, can we get a list of just which year spindle and A-arm works best for our SVO's, I want to switch over to the SN-95 style and do not want to get a "bad' year part.

[Chalky]

Part of the question that needs to be answered is do you want to use the stock brakes or SN-95 parts???

[Bdbys59]

sorry, going SN-95 or later:mad:

[Raven855]

I will assume that you using the SVO K member. For the spindle you have 3 choices, the 94-95, 96-99, and 99-04. The spindle you want is the 94-95. You will find with this spindle that steering response is similiar to what you have now. The 96-99 and 99-04 spindle has a straighter arm and although ackermann is improved the tierod location is wrong. Even using lowered rackbushings and a bumpsteer kit you will not be happy, you just cannot fix it. All spindles are the same between models, V6, V8 and Cobra.
Using the 94-95 spindle you will need to change out the control arms. The SVO arm is forged steel, has a large non removable ball joint, 14" in length, and unique bushings. The Fox Mustang uses an arm that is 13" in length and I don't consider it a good replacement. The Turbo Coupe has an arm that is 13 3/4", the 94-99 Mustang is 13 3/4" in length, and the late 99 to 04 is 13 3/4" in length. The 94-99 Mustang arm is a better choice over the TC arm because it uses the low friction ball joint. The late 99-04 arm is even better still as it uses a redesigned arm that reduces the turning radius by approx. 10 per cent. The latest Ford arm is basically the 03 Cobra arm. It has the firmest bushings, low friction ball joints and the redesign.
Using any of these arms with the SVO springs will raise the front of your car. The spring cup for the spring is lower on the SVO. You may have to drill a hole in the arm to accommodate the sway bar link.

[MikeFleming]

I went with the straight arm 96 spindle type. Although I did LOTS of other front suspension mods (MM k-frame, KONI FOX D/A struts, MM lower arms, etc.) I managed to get the bumpsteer well within acceptable limits.

Pic of straight-arm spindle (rusty)
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Straight arm after cleaning, before paint
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Pic of dog-leg spindle (rusty)
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My installation pics
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875

Measured Bump values versus arm height:
871

Final bump steer change numbers:
878

That's 11 Thousands of an inch total toe change from full up to full down.

[Larry_S]

Anyone recognize this bump steer setup? It is for SVO spindle and probably 10-15 years old. How do I remove? I tried to put wrench on and turn as it has 6 point adjacent to spindle and tried to use air hammer but either would budge bolt out of spindle.

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[MikeFleming]

1554
That looks like what I'd expect to be the MM tapered stud kit. If I'm right, that vertical stud is a taper fit into the steering arm in the spindle just like the ball joint was. They make two kits: one that does not require spindle steering arm hole machining and one that does. I used the one that requires that tapered hole to be opened up to accept a 5/8" bolt.

So you remove the tapered stud the same way you remove any tapered stud/shaft/ball joint stud - with a hammer.

Notice in the picture you posted (copied in this post) the a-arm ball joint boss area has hammer marks on it? A good smack there will deform the taper enough to pop the stud out. Unfortunately your problem now may be how to hold the spindle securely enough and apply some outward pressure on the stud to be able to get a good smack onto the boss that holds the tapered pin in. A sturdy vice on a heavy bench should do the trick maybe with some weight attached to the tapered stud and let gravity pull it down while you give it good smack.

Safety First - re-install the top nut on the stud for a few threads so it doesn't just go flying around the shop. And a generous dosing of Liquid Wrench (or your favorite generic or name-brand equivalent) beforehand.

[Larry_S]

Thanks for the advice Mike. I took to a friends and he heated with oxy-acetyene and has a nice anvil we put against and as you say whacked the boss area which dislodged the part.

[stott]

Using the 94-95 spindle you will need to change out the control arms. The SVO arm is forged steel, has a large non removable ball joint, 14" in length, and unique bushings.

there's no way to run the SVO front control arms with the 94-95 sn95 spindles?

[MikeFleming]

there's no way to run the SVO front control arms with the 94-95 sn95 spindles? You would have to do one of the following:

- Machine out the SN95 spindle lower tapered ball joint hole to the size of the SVO a-arm's ball joint (assuming there's enough meat in the spindle forging to do this)

or

- Replace the SVO ball joints in the SVO a-arm with a different ball joint assy - that fits into the smaller tapered hole in the SN95 spindle.

Other than the above options, No. The SVO a-arm with stock SVO ball joint will not fit the lower ball joint hole on the SN95 spindles.

The large round peg does not go into the small round hole.

[stott]

You would have to do one of the following:


- Replace the SVO ball joints in the SVO a-arm with a different ball joint assy - that fits into the smaller tapered hole in the SN95 spindle.



from what i understand the svo ball joint is not replaceable. is there a procedure you're aware of to accomplish this? (i've heard some shops can do it but idk)

[MikeFleming]

from what i understand the svo ball joint is not replaceable. is there a procedure you're aware of to accomplish this? (i've heard some shops can do it but idk) The SVO A-arm was not designed to have the ball joint replaced. The outer race IS the a-arm forging.

Some folks have been successful with pressing out the ball/stud in the SVO a-arm and machining out the outer race section to allow pressing in of a replacement joint. In that case an appropriately sized taper joint could possibly be installed.

I do not know of any companies or persons that offer this service currently.

[Raven855]

Which A arms did you use on your set up Mike? Which holes in the frame did you use? Trying to save myself some experimenting.

[MikeFleming]

I used MM's zero-offset FOX a-arms with the MM FOX 5.0 k-frame. I used the forward (normal) engine mounting holes. I used the lower k-frame holes.

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Iirc I used the following MM items for the front:

MMKM-1 FOX 5.0 k-frame
MMTR-1 Bumpsteer kit
MMFCA-7 SN-95 a-arms
MMCO-2 front CO kit for KONI with 350#/in springs on KONI FOX DA struts.

[Raven855]

Thanks Mike!

[MikeFleming]

No worries, Mate!

[Jack Hidley]

Mike,

Those are MMFCA-7 front control arms. These are zero offset SN95 FCAs. You can tell because the swaybar mounting tab has two holes, one for SN95 swaybars and one for Fox swaybars. The MMFCA-1 FCAs only have one hole in the tab for Fox swaybars.

[MikeFleming]

Thanks for the correction Jack!

Above post updated appropriately.

[Raven855]

Thanks for the correction Jack!

It's so nice having help keeping you in line! HAHAHAHA!

[MikeFleming]

It's so nice having help keeping you in line! HAHAHAHA! Somebody's got to do it!

The instructions with the package were generic - labeled "MMFCA-1,2,3,4,5,6,7" to cover assembly/installation of most of MM's a-arms. So I used my memory. And it failed me again.

[Raven855]

Mike, would you share some more info on your setup? I recall your DAs were milled .250"? Or were they milled as close to the strut body as possible? Did you keep the same inclination angle or shift the strut for better scrub radius with your tires and wheels? They were 17 X 8 with 36mm offset? How about the rack spacing? We will have some differences. The rack I am using has been milled for one, the arms are the offset variety for another.

[MikeFleming]

I milled the upper mounting holes in the strut body about 1/8" outward - to allow more clearance between the strut and knuckle for tyre/wheel clearance. Then adjusted the strut top mount (via CC plates) to get the desired camber and caster (running 6 degrees positive caster and -1.5 camber). The uprights are mounted to the struts in the most-offset position. I did that for tyre clearance (and later discovered that I probably didn't need to) and not for any special front suspension geometry changes. That extra caster is really sweet compared to a stock FOX of +1.

The wheels I used are 17 x 8 with a 43mm offset so they hang more on the inside than a 36mm would. Iirc the backspacing is about 6.25" (can verify with the photo archives). The wheels I selected are a forged unit from 5Zigen, #FN01R weighing in at 13.6#. I think they've been discontinued by now.

Iirc the rack is center-mounted with MM's aluminum inserts on the bolts (used the later 12mm rack mounting bolts that are required by the MM k-frame). I will need to check my assembly photos to be sure. The rack mount inserts came in MM k-fame hardware bag.

Curiously with all the semi-solid suspension and solid steering mounts the whole car shakes and rattles just like a real race car but the steering is very smooth and vibration free.

Then there's that exhaust growl ...

Let me know what you need pictures of. Have LOTS.

[Raven855]

That's very good feedback! Pictures are very welcome! Do we need to start a different thread though? I find the wheel info very good. I have Maximums recommendation, but real world implementation is even better!

[MikeFleming]

You mean a "How I made the Red Baron" thread?

[Bob Holmes]

You mean a "How I made the Red Baron" thread?

It would save you the problem of explaining the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over...

[MikeFleming]

Then I could just say "Use the SEARCH!!" and post a link!

[Raven855]

Then I could just say "Use the SEARCH!!" and post a link!
Hahaha! That's the ticket! It's a classic story that should be in print for posterity. Besides it will counter that blue smurf thread.

[MikeFleming]

?? We have a Blue Smurf thread ??

[Bob Holmes]

?? We have a Blue Smurf thread ??

Doesn't everyone.

[MikeFleming]

I checked and the rack mount bushings (solid aluminum) came with the MM k-frame hardware kit. Thread above updated accordingly.

I will work on some Red Baron Projects threads this coming weekend.

[Patrick]

Blue Smurf? what the heck?

[Raven855]

Blue Smurf? what the heck?
Yes, you know! With that Papa Blue Smurf flat Bob Horse Widower Holmes. He gets called more names than I do!

[MikeFleming]

He gets called more names than I do! Tell me it ain't so?

[stott]

sorry to steer this back on topic,

i was wondering if you knew what type of mustang coil spring to use with a SN95 front control arm on an SVO? i know the SVO pocket is deeper so you need a different spring when swapping to a SN95 arm.

also, how much inner tire/wheel clearance do you lose with the MM Maximum Motorsports coilover setup? it seems like that spring wrapped around the strut would significantly decrease the clearance, to the tune of 1/2" or so?

thanks!

[Raven855]

The springs are the same for both the SVO and sn95. You are right in that the spring cup on the SVO control arm is lower but the ride height difference is minimal and usually around 1/2-3/4" lower in the SVO. You can install new and thicker isolator to raise it back up but there really is no need too. You will not lose any tire clearance when converting to the coilovers really. When using a coilovers, you can install and 8" 425# that will give you that 1/2" back. A little rough for the street though. A 10" 300-325 is pretty typical and makes for a better and more responsive ride over the convention spring

[MikeFleming]

Here's a relevant pic of the clearance between the KONI DA FOX strut, 96+ sn95 upright and a 17x8x43mm offset wheels and 245/40-17 tyres. Not much different than the stock SVO KONI struts with the dust boots installed.

The spring ID is 2.5" to give a measurement reference.

2063

Here's some pics of the wheel backspacing on the Red Baron. Center mounting to the outside of the tyre is 163mm (~6.41") and the distance from the sidewall edge to the rim edge is 7mm (~0.276") for a total backspacing of 156mm (~6.15").
2064
2065

[Raven855]

You are showing a 10" 300# spring, if I remember right. The 8" raises the perch above the tire.

[stott]

here's my front suspension i'm about to do:

stock SVO k-member
94-95 spindles, BAER PBR setup.
mm coilover kit for koni style.
mm caster plates
17"x9" +35mm offset wheels. (probably with 245/40/17)
wheel spacers if necessary.

SN95 length control arms.
-prefer to go tubular. MM arms seem kind of expensive, not sure if i'll look for cheaper alternatives
strut/coilover
- not sure whether to get sn95 style strut (http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=514_23_375_389&products_id=1331) or fox style strut (http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=514_23_374_384&products_id=1330)
- also not sure about what spring/wheel rate to go with the coilover spring, or the length of the spring. my ride height will likely stay very near stock, maybe 1/2" lower.

any advice on the choice of tubular a-arms, choice of koni-style strut, and/or spring choice would be greatly appreciated!

[MikeFleming]

You are showing a 10" 300# spring, if I remember right. The 8" raises the perch above the tire. Chu tawkin ta me?

I have 10" 350# springs in the front.

[Raven855]

How are you going to use your car? It makes a big difference on the modifications you will be doing. For instance changing to the Baer brakes means spindles, control arms, tie rods, master cylinder and probable a balance knob.

The 8" springs start at 425#. Too much for the street really, unless you went with a torque arm in back. That changes everything. To figure out what you need, the best way is to talk with your supplier and get their recommendations.

[stott]

How are you going to use your car? It makes a big difference on the modifications you will be doing. For instance changing to the Baer brakes means spindles, control arms, tie rods, master cylinder and probable a balance knob.

The 8" springs start at 425#. Too much for the street really, unless you went with a torque arm in back. That changes everything. To figure out what you need, the best way is to talk with your supplier and get their recommendations.

it's a street car. it probably won't ever see a track, but it's also not my DD. so something streetable and doesn't have to be too tame. a torque arm might be in the future, but for now it's just a regular 8.8" out back. the baer brakes are just like the cobra ones, i was under the impression that the SVO master cylinder would be more than enough. i already have the spindles and control arms.

from my post, the only things i haven't purchased yet are the bolded items, the actual control arms (which i need one way or the other, since sn95 spindles won't work with svo ball joint), and i also need the struts and coilover springs.

[MikeFleming]

If you're changing to the dual-piston Baer/Cobra front calipers, you'll also want to install a smaller bore MC - the 1994 Cobra 15/16" MC works well in this application.

To fit the Cobra MC, you will also need to fab or buy some Metric bubble flare to SAE double flare pipes between the MC and the PV valve.Optionally you can add a hydraulic distro block for the front and then add a rear-only manual prop valve. Mix and match but recall that and FOX brake stuff is SAE threads and double flare while all SN-95 stuff uses metric nuts & bubble flares.

If you plan to lower the car any amount, then you want the shorter FOX struts and not the SVO units - the SVO units will be too long. And be sure add some real CC plates with metal-to-metal upper joints (coil-overs need a solid upper mount as that is that supports the weight of the front end of the car) to get the desired caster/camber settings. Besides no one makes a CO kit for the SVO KONI struts.

I will cover all this in my Red Baron Projects threads. Although I'm probably a couple weeks [or more] away ftom the front suspension stuff.

[stott]

i already have the MM CC plates. the sn95 spindles mean i need to probably get different struts anyway. the ones on my car are ill fitting KYBs that i've been meaning to replace.

i was going to get the single-adjust Koni yellows, just wasn't sure if i needed FOX or SN95 length. keep in mind that i'm using the longer SN95 control arms, not the fox arms (since i'm sticking with stock k-member). with the front CO i'll only lower the front maybe 1/2" at the very most.

you're sure the stock MC is inadequate for just the addition of PBR brakes?

[MikeFleming]

you're sure the stock MC is inadequate for just the addition of PBR brakes? Yep. But do the math and you will quickly see why. Iirc the stock SVO pistons are 73mm diameter.

[Raven855]

Remember that the sn95 arms are still shorter than the SVO. On the control arms the late 99 and later arms are preferred as they decrease the turning radius by about 10%. I try to post up some info on the MC later. I am currently in Memphis for a bowl game.

[stott]

yep. believe me, it was an epic odyssey to try to figure out the definitive control arm lengths. i referenced your post in this very thread. others seem to think the sn95 arms are longer, but all evidence points towards your assertion.

just purchased MM front control arms (delrin), mm rear torque arm, panhard bar, and adj. rear lower control arms. MM is having a huge sale right now.

[Raven855]

You will enjoy the torque arm. Before you do anything though make sure that you have SFCs. If you are doing COs in back you will need to add support for the shock towers. Since you are doing M&M's sale I hope you took advantage of the gift certificates to buy their stuff.

[stott]

already have SFC. not going to do rear coilovers.

i'll have to give them a call tomorrow to figure out which front coilover springs, rear springs, and front struts will be optimal.

[Raven855]

It will be interesting to hear what you learn. The most significant changes you can make to improve the handling of a mustang are at the back. The torque arm is one of those things that significantly change it. Your spring selection at the back is critical and talking to M&M will give you a considerable education and knowledge of what it is going to take to make your setup work.

[blueboss]

Besides no one makes a CO kit for the SVO KONI struts.

Actually, pg 31-32 of the Koni Motorsports catalog lists a threaded sleeve kit for the 8741 series shock for use with a 2.5" i.d. spring. However, according to the Koni rep I spoke to some time back, for the sleeves to install, the metal "washer" that is spot welded to the retaining nut that holds the shock together must be removed. Even if Koni performs this modification, the lifetime warranty is void.

2735

[MikeFleming]

There are also body welds that must be ground down to allow the sleeves to slide down on the strut body. It's a lot of work, nonetheless. I will post some pics later.

Not to mention that the length of the SVO strut gets to me tool on when you add upper CC paltes - hood clearance issues abound.

[stott]

Yep. But do the math and you will quickly see why. Iirc the stock SVO pistons are 73mm diameter.

Took your advice, purchased a very reasonably priced cobra MC (made sure it was the 15/16" bore) from Rockauto.

It looks like MM sells brake conversion kits, but they're from Fox V8 MC to Cobra MC. Nothing for SVO to Cobra MC. Will need to research more, would prefer a kit with pre-bent hard lines vs. fitting adapters.

[MikeFleming]

It looks like MM sells brake conversion kits, but they're from Fox V8 MC to Cobra MC. Nothing for SVO to Cobra MC. Will need to research more, would prefer a kit with pre-bent hard lines vs. fitting adapters. Classic Tube has the templates and can make them in mild steel or 304 SS (metric threads/flare on the MC end and SAE threads/double flare on PV end). They made a set in SS for me several years back.

Lots of pics for the projects threads - when I get that far along (after the Cobra caliper machining and 13" rotor installation).

[Raven855]

Here is a link for you. It has quite abit of info. Look it over, it may answer some of your question. http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page14.html

[MikeFleming]

If you go with the 94 Cobra MC, you will need to machine the snout down where it pushes into the booster (bolt pattern is same). 94 Cobra (15/16" bore) on left, SVO on right.
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2795

Stock SVO on left, machined Cobra on right.
2796

I bought these for the front of the red car and some EradiSpeed+ 13" rotors.
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Then milled off the raised lettering.
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2800

Then CNC's the "SVO" logo into the new face.
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Then paint & bake.
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Cut the paint from the SVO logo recesses.
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Mount on car and hide inside wheel.
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[stott]

mike - no keyed lug nuts?

[MikeFleming]

The ones in the pics above are open-ended steel ones in a 19mm hex. They have since been changed to open-ended aluminum lugnuts. In black. Also in 19mm hex. As shown here:
2824

Splined steel ones are too heavy and McGard locking ones are total junk (and too heavy).

[stott]

wanted to report back that the stock SVO master cylinder (MC) snout OD is 1.48"