Koni and Alignment Settings for HPDE Event

[Gary13]

Good Day...

Hopefully I put this thread in the right area as it is not really racing per say but not street either.

After five years, 617 new parts and enough money to have paid off the Boss 302 (exaggerated but the wife thinks differently) I am ready to take the old girl out to do a few HPDE events for personal reasons. Either the car will go up in flames or I will be able to hang with the Miatas until the brakes give out. This months course info is below for a reference point and this a video of the track - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5RXGQO262Og

msr31.JPG

A brief listing of the major suspension parts are described below.
Front:
1. Stock Konis - new
2. '03 Cobra FCAs with MM Spindle Adapter Kit - new arms
3. Stock spindles and K-Member - refurbed
4. Stock steering setup - updated rack, rag joint and MM bushings
5. New tie rods and end links (FRPP)
6. MM K-Member Brace and Strut Tower Brace
7. MM Caster/Camber plates
8. MM Sway Bar Relocation Kit and Poly Bushings - Stock Swaybar
9. H&R Sport Springs (front and rear with poly insulators)
10. MM Subframe Connectors

Rear:
1. Stock Konis - Quad Setup, new
2. MM HD Lower Control Arms
3. FRPP Upper Control Arms
4. MM Panhard Bar
5. Stock Sway Bar - Updated Poly Bushings
6. KB rear shock tower brace
7. 8.8 Rear - Updated FRPP Differential Cover, FRPP Torsen T2, stock 3.73 gears

Brakes:
1. Stock Setup - New Calipers on all corners, SS Lines, Slotted Rotors, HPDE Pad setup, MC, Power Booster, Duct Kit, Motul 600, etc.

Wheels:
1. Stock with Bridgestone RE11A 225/50/16 - scrubbed in the last month, about 500 miles.

Engine/Transmission:
1. Near stock - few upgrades, dyno this weekend at 222/278, rebuilt T5
2. All new cooling system but it still runs warmer than normal.

All that said, I have never run this car on a track and will be learning how to drive again (modded '03 Cobra, '12 Boss 302 LS are my HPDE cars) and dropping down to the Blue Group. The new "stock" setup seems weird based on not going a full SN95 setup for the rebuild my daughter wanted a stock setup. Unfortunately she passed away before we finished the car this summer for her sweet 16 birthday.

So any suggestions on the following are greatly appreciated.
1. Koni Setup on the Front and Rear - Soft, Firm, Extra Firm?
2. Front Alignment (driving the car to and from the event but want a good balance on the track)
3. Any last minute suspension changes based on the car's refurb list.

Sincere Thanks in Advance...

[MikeFleming]

My condolences on your daughter. That must be tough.

Set all KONIs to full hard. Tires to 32-34 cold, bring them down to ~36-3 when hot (an iterative process).

Front alignment: As much caster as possible (5+ degrees if your CC plates will do it). -2.0/-2.5 degrees camber and zero toe-in. If you can tolerate a loose car on track, set 1/8 toe OUT. If you want more push, 1/16 toe IN.

Get some semi-track pads and install fresh DOT 4 fluid, such as ATE 200.

Have fun!!

[Gary13]

My condolences on your daughter. That must be tough.

Have fun!!

Thanks for the kind words Mike. As a parent you never want to lose a child. It is the most unbearable pain one can imagine. Especially since she was in a freak one in a billion accident that also killed a close friend of hers that was also my son's best friend - http://www.anandtech.com/show/7188/a...wn-abigail-key .

Thank you for the settings, it is greatly appreciated. As for the brakes I am running the Stillen slotted rotors, Porterfield R4-S pads and Motul 600 in the car now. I think those should suffice but considering the number of turns I am still a little concerned. I bought a set of EBC slotted rotors and Yellowstuff pads (also a set of Bluestuff for the front) as a backup and still have not decided whether to switch out the pads or not before Saturday. The car stops great on the street now but I have no idea how well the pads I bought will hold up over two days on that course.

I know with my '03 that the Yellowstuff or Porterfield R4-S pads will make it through a weekend session even with that ship anchor on the front end. On the Boss 302 I get two full sessions with the Blue front and Yellow rear combo but the Blues are fairly hard on street rotors so that car gets separate front rotors on track days and sometimes actual track pads depending on the course.

I am smart enough to save my brakes but not ever driving this car on track and knowing how it likes to waddle around I am honestly worried about what will happen here. My son will be driving his '07 Shelby GT at this HPDE also but it is his first time so he is in the Green group but his car was prepped by FTBR so it should hold together. I just do not want to embarrass myself with the SVO as he thinks I am nuts driving it. He bet me I will not make two laps before a wrecker call goes out. But I owe it to Abby as this car is something we worked together on for the last five years and she claimed it as hers last year with the intention of doing HPDE when she was old enough.

[MikeFleming]

As for the brakes I am running the Stillen slotted rotors, Porterfield R4-S pads and Motul 600 in the car now. I think those should suffice but considering the number of turns I am still a little concerned. I bought a set of EBC slotted rotors and Yellowstuff pads (also a set of Bluestuff for the front) as a backup and still have not decided whether to switch out the pads or not before Saturday. The car stops great on the street now but I have no idea how well the pads I bought will hold up over two days on that course.

I had a set of EBC yellows on my EVO X for a short while after wearing down the original Brembo Ferodo pads. Once I cured the noise issues for street use, I took them to a track day.

50% fade by the third lap. TOTALLY worthless - IMHO - as a track pad. I would get 6-10 laps on the stock Ferodo pads so I was seriously disappointed with the yellows. Granted the EVO is heavier than the SVO by a bunch (~600 Lbs) but I was not expecting the yellows to be so wimpy. They did have a nice cold initial bite level though (higher friction level than stock Ferodo pads) but once they got warm (650-800 F rotor temps), they were done.

So I changed to Ferodo DS2500 F/R for street pads and CarboTech XP12/XP10 for fronts/rears. Haven't tracked the XPs yet. That's coming soon though.

[Bob Holmes]

First of all, my sincere condolences. I can't imagine what you are going through. Second, you won't keep up with the Miati, so don't even worry about it. Make absolutely certain that you have the engine warm before going out on track. We've had serious problems with stripping dizzy gears when the engine isn't warm. Do not run a thick oil to try and compensate. If you can find a way to cool the brakes, its well worth the effort. Please post pictures if you can.

[Ford Builder]

I want to wish you good luck, keep us posted

[Gary13]

I had a set of EBC yellows on my EVO X for a short while after wearing down the original Brembo Ferodo pads. Once I cured the noise issues for street use, I took them to a track day.

50% fade by the third lap. TOTALLY worthless - IMHO 0 as a track pad. I would get 6-10 laps on the stock Feroro pads so I was seriously disappointed with the yellows. Granted the EVO is heavier than the SVO by a bunch (~600 Lbs) but I was not expecting the yellows to be so wimpy. They did have a nice cold initial bite level though (higher friction level than stock Ferodo pads) but once they got warm (650-800 F rotor temps), they were done.

So I changed to Ferodo DS2500 F/R for street pads and CarboTech XP12/XP10 for fronts/rears. Haven't tracked the XPs yet. That's coming soon though.

Interesting, I have not had an issue with the EBC Yellows but have just been using them since late last year. I understand the 2011 and earlier formula was a dog as you described. I had bought several sets off Amazon earlier this year when they were listed at the GreenStuff price for a couple of days. Even so, I will go a different direction now.

On my son's GT, we are using the Ferodo DS2500 front and rears this weekend plus his brakes were upgraded to the Brembo package on the GT500 with forced cooling also. I have always liked the CarboTech products and the Bobcats were always a daily street pad on my wife's BMW or Audi. The last time I used them they squealed worse than Ned Beatty after hearing dueling banjos. I spoke with Mike and he recommended a XP10/XP8 combo on this car with the Stillen rotors. I ordered a set and fingers crossed they will be here on Thursday. I also ordered a XP20/XP10 setup for the Cobra. He said on the heavier cars the XP20 is a better alternative than XP12 and that they were actually easier on the rotors and squealed less than the 12s.

So I will have some thoughts shortly on all three pads after what appears to be a very warm weekend forecast and a long technical track.

[Gary13]

Second, you won't keep up with the Miati, so don't even worry about it. Make absolutely certain that you have the engine warm before going out on track. We've had serious problems with stripping dizzy gears when the engine isn't warm. Do not run a thick oil to try and compensate. If you can find a way to cool the brakes, its well worth the effort. Please post pictures if you can.

Oh man, at least let a guy dream about staying up with a couple of MX-5s and Minis. What oil do you recommend in the car for HPDE? I have been running RP 10W30 in the car since I bought it. As for cooling the brakes, I have a ghetto, err, SN95 modified setup on it that hopefully will pass inspection. If not, it takes about 3 minutes to snip it off.

[Mike S]

I have the stock brakes and slotted rotors on my track car. I use Hawk Blues on the front and EBC yellows on the back. I can run a 2 day event with no brake fade or issues. I use Motorcraft brake fluid; cheap and effective. I set my front Konis to 1 turn back from full hard. I have Tokico Illuminas in the rear set on 4 of 5. I have the Eibach Race springs and a similar rear setup as you described. I can only get 3.5* caster with my setup, but I like the specs Mike's stated above. I like my setup a little loose so I can throttle steer the rear end around when needed. I haven't tried the EBC Blues yet, but the Hawk blues have not let me down yet. I also added plastic air deflectors zip tied to the stock LCA to direct air under the car towards the brakes.

I normally run a 2-3 psi differential between front and rear tires. I start out with 35 up front and 32in the rear with my 16in rims.
Hammering the brakes at the hairpin downhill turn.
Barber Sept.24-25, 2011 DL - 8 581.jpg
Fending off the miatas!
Barber Sept.24-25, 2011 DL - 1 503.jpg

[mrzw70]

Nice pics and car Mike, thanks for sharing.

[MikeFleming]

Interesting, I have not had an issue with the EBC Yellows but have just been using them since late last year. I understand the 2011 and earlier formula was a dog as you described.

Could be that the yellows I had were of the "old" variety as I got them for free some time back. EBC was running an SCCA special where if you sent them a copy of your SCCA license, they'd send a free set of pads (F&R) to folks in exchange for running their pads and stickers on windows (stickers on windows, pads inside calipers for those wondering!). So I got a full set. Don't remember when that was - but it's been more than two years.

In any case they have a higher-than-normal cold friction level that some folks don't like but I was OK with. I was just seriously disappointed on how quickly they turned to soft butter during track use.

I read through their XP10,12,20,... listings many times and choose the 12/10 combo to test first. We will see and adjust as needed after a few track sessions. Gotta start somewhere and I'm sure they'll do much better at temp than the DS2500. That's the goal for now.

[Mike S]

Here are some more pictures to see suspension loading.

Barber Sept.24-25, 2011 DL - 1 572.jpgBarber Sept.24-25, 2011 DL - 6 047.jpgBarber Sept.24-25, 2011 DL - 11 138.jpg

[k98dave]

Gary,

It was great to see an SVO on track. You are the only one I have seen at the ranch since it opened back in 1999. I haven't taken my 84 out there yet but have lots of seat time in Miata and Mustangs. I am working my SCCA corner worker job for this event and I'm on turn 13 for the weekend. I was going to look for your car during the lunch break but didn't have enough time.
By the way our workers are detecting a faint smell of oil when you go by. Nothing driping just the smell, Turbo oil feed or return line?

If it rains Sunday and you have driven the ranch before you know its really super slick worst than any other track I'l driven.....the wet line is marginal at best and eventually you cross over the dry line ......and watch out!

Hope to see you and get to talk to you on Sunday.

[Gary13]

Gary,

It was great to see an SVO on track. You are the only one I have seen at the ranch since it opened back in 1999. I haven't taken my 84 out there yet but have lots of seat time in Miata and Mustangs. I am working my SCCA corner worker job for this event and I'm on turn 13 for the weekend. I was going to look for your car during the lunch break but didn't have enough time.
By the way our workers are detecting a faint smell of oil when you go by. Nothing driping just the smell, Turbo oil feed or return line?

If it rains Sunday and you have driven the ranch before you know its really super slick worst than any other track I'l driven.....the wet line is marginal at best and eventually you cross over the dry line ......and watch out!

Hope to see you and get to talk to you on Sunday.

Hi Dave,
I did not read this until today. Sorry, I would have hunted you down. We will be back in December so we need to get together. As for the car, the instructor drove the crap out of it in the first session and said it was one of the most balanced fox bodies he had driven in a long time and was surprised I was on the stock braking setup. He was pulling hard all the way through toilet bowl unlike the bigger cars and loved 2nd and 3rd gear in the car for that section of the track. I was happy about that and obviously thanks to everyone here I was able to properly setup the car. In fact, the BMW guys invited me out this weekend to run the 1.7 with them. I even had a few offers for the car.

The oil smell was due to the one part I had not replaced. The PCV valve was having blow by so a little oil hit the block, the guys at PST said it was probably just a few drops. So fortunately I had a backup PCV in my bag and they replaced it. Went back out and ran at 8/10ths in the next session and all was well. Hit the third session and damn it, another short burst of smoke so I pulled it back in to PST and we put it up on the rack. The first guy to look at it said bad turbo as he thought the turbo oil feed line broke and ran it dry. My heart dropped and then I thought, wth, the engine was still running perfect, no weird sounds, no smoke through the pipes and all the gauges were good. Then I started looking at where there was a little oil splatter right below the intake manifold and the damn oil baffle had a small hairline crack in it. Apparently when I really got into the boost there were some oil droplets blowing through that seam and onto the block, hence the smell and a little puff of smoke at times. They gave me a green light on the inspection and Rick was wanting to drive the car in the instructor session.

I decided to play it safe and retired the car. I am not about to take a chance and hurt the car or have others feel unsafe on the track. Apparently Miss Slow Foot in the 2012 GT complained that the half second of smoke that was smaller than a good cigar exhale kept her from driving fast in that session. Long story short finally, new oil baffle arriving on Wednesday. It was actually good in the end since the car is setup perfectly, fulfilled a promise I made last spring to my daughter and was able to concentrate on my son's driving and dialing in his car for Sunday. He killed his third and fourth sessions and will be moved to the next group in December. So I actually felt good for a short period of time.

Take care...

And for those wanting pictures here is my car parked. The track pictures are delayed from the photographer for another day or so. Once again, thanks to everyone for their suggestions, it really helped.

SVOGK3.jpgSVOGK1.jpgSVOGK2.jpg

[mrzw70]

Glad you had a good day at the track and that the car, for the most part, did well. I'm sure that you will sort out your small ptoblems and have it running flawless soon. Looking forward to the track pics.

[k98dave]

Gary,

We were wondering why we didn't see you on Sunday but not running it again was the right call. All of our corner guys look for any signs or smells to try and keep everybody from having troubles. You car only had a very slight haze out the back but no signs of droping oil on the track or we would have blacked flagged you in. Glad it was just the baffle, a broken feed line would have made a real mess.
Not sure who was in the gt but I think the track record was still safe, she had to slow down from the oil on her windshield I guess right? (LOL)
BTW there are new oil feed lines for sale here in the "parts for sale" I have one as a spare, also there was a NOS return line on ebay a few days ago.

I'll be working MSR for BMW again this weekend. Last time I had my 84 out there was at a NASA race I could have sold it several times but that's not in my plans. If you make it out I'll try and find you during lunch and I'll bring my car.

[Gary13]

Gary,

We were wondering why we didn't see you on Sunday but not running it again was the right call. All of our corner guys look for any signs or smells to try and keep everybody from having troubles. You car only had a very slight haze out the back but no signs of droping oil on the track or we would have blacked flagged you in. Glad it was just the baffle, a broken feed line would have made a real mess.
Not sure who was in the gt but I think the track record was still safe, she had to slow down from the oil on her windshield I guess right? (LOL)
BTW there are new oil feed lines for sale here in the "parts for sale" I have one as a spare, also there was a NOS return line on ebay a few days ago.

I'll be working MSR for BMW again this weekend. Last time I had my 84 out there was at a NASA race I could have sold it several times but that's not in my plans. If you make it out I'll try and find you during lunch and I'll bring my car.

LOL, she was turtle slow all day and jammed traffic just about every other lap. I passed her and then had the first puff which apparently freaked her out from what I heard. She thought the track was going to be covered in oil and she would wreck. Her husband was running the same car in the blue group and was not the friendliest of people either. Oh well, I will be back in yellow with either the Cobra or GT500 and not have to worry about them. I think I will go ahead and buy the oil feed lines just in case. I started figuring out what I have not replaced and it comes down to oil feed lines, oil baffle, wiper motor, map light, passenger vanity mirror and floor mats. So far the oil baffle failed so with my luck the rest will follow shortly. I figure the floor mats will be the hardest item to find.

Here is one pic on track -
SVOGKa.jpg

[k98dave]

Where did you get the oil baffle? I would like to pick pick one up to have. Spare oil feed line is good to have but the flex return line seems to more of a problem
I plan to pull the motor for a refresh, cam swap along with the turbo rebuild over the winter so I'm stocking up on parts

SVO's didn't have unique floor mats like 93 Cobras did. Standard charcoal color mats are easy to find. Late Model and /or Fox Restoration should have them

[Gary13]

Just a follow up on my Koni and Alignment settings for this particular track and my car setup in case anyone does a search or I forget them before December. The car was perfectly neutral and we could place it anywhere on the track. Until I retired it we could take the Miata/BR-Z line or go with the bigger cars. I have to give a big shout out to the Bridgestone RE11A 225/50/16 tires. Best street/track tire I have used in a long time. Dry grip just like the G-Force Rival and better wet performance than the Michelin Super Sports.

Alignment-
Camber: -1.75
Caster : 3.5+ degrees
Toe: Out 1/16th

Konis- Adjusted after the first run along with tire pressures to keep the rear-end tucked in a tad more but still able to throttle steer it if needed.
Front - 1/2 turn off full firm
Rear - 1 turn off full firm

Tire Pressure -
Fronts: 36
Rears: 34

Thanks once again to MikeF and MikeS for your suggestions and Dave for not black flagging me.