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Thread: Data Loggiing With Innovate Motorsports

  1. #1
    Some Boost SchoolBoy's Avatar
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    Data Loggiing With Innovate Motorsports

    So in my normal fashion one thing leads to another. I originaly ordered an innovate DB gauge and LC-2 controler. Once I had that in hand I realized the data logging with it was pointless since you didn't have RPM as a reference point. So I also ordered the LMA-3 AuxBox which has the ability to log;
    RPM,
    3 bar MAP/ Boost,
    Injector duty cycle,
    EGT/CHT,
    2 axis accelerometer,
    TPS

    My question is out of all of these options what do I really need to log and tune when I install the SDS?
    How big a role does EGT play a role in tuning?

  2. #2
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    Off the top:

    TPS - aka driver demand
    AIRFLOW - may end up being calculated in a speed-density system
    LOAD - always calculated, per-cylinder charge load
    TEMP - air, coolant, driver
    PRESSURE - manifold pressure, boost
    RPM - obvious
    EGT - exhaust temp
    FUEL FLOW (pulse width is more useful than duty cycle, duty cycle shows when the flow limit is reached)
    TIMING - must have
    KNOCK EVENTS - if detecting knock

    GPS/Accelererometer/etc. are useful chassis and driver tuning tools. Not at all useful for engine tuning, imho.
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  3. #3
    Some Boost SchoolBoy's Avatar
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    Mike reading your build a little bit you seemed to use your egt's to help determine you needed more timing, can you elaborate a bit on this? Is the a temp range your try'n to stay in?

  4. #4
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    That's kinda a long discussion. I'll start with this for now and we can ad to it as the discusion progresses.

    Too high EGT values reduces the survivability of assorted engine parts. For example most exhaust valve seats are cracked on turbo heads due to too much time at elevated EGT. Better coolant flow in the head, better thermal conductivity, etc. would help, but the cause it still excessive EGT for too long. As we say in the metallurgy field, Time at Temp. For example a human can survive in 120F temps for days, 180F for maybe a few hours (think dry sauna), 300F for less than a few minutes, 1000F for less than a second (think finger in lighter flame). Temp AND time are the important factors.

    Most boosted petrol engines see EGT values in the 1650F range under full load. Obviously temps are higher inside the combustion chamber and sections of the exhaust valve and port see those higher temps. So we like to use good, high-temp capable materials for those parts - so they survive what we do to them (actually what the engines do). Also note that valve faces and piston tops also get exposed o the relavitely cool incoming charge on the next cycle. Not so for the exhaust plumbing.

    IC petrol engines are a batch process machine. Get some air, suck or push it into the engine and add the correct amount of fuel. The "correct" amount depends on operating conditions so for max power in a boosted engine, we usually want 11.0-12.0 (depends of fuel and many other factors). Then we trap the air and fuel and compress it. When the piston is very near TDC (and the clearance volume is very small, relatively), we light the fire (actually the ignition system does this for us) to burn all that stuff trapped in there. It's trapped 'cause it has nowhere else to go.

    As the fuel and air burn (oxidize), heat is released. This released heat warms up everything including the piston top, chamber surfaces, any portion of the cylinder walls it touches, valve faces, and the rest of the unburned air/fuel stuff we started with. The increased pressure pushes the piston down, making that stuff we love so much - Power.

    Lather, rinse, rpeat. Batch processing.

    A interesting phenomenon we have observed over the years is that the fuel/air charge takes some time to burn completely, but not forever. Ideally we want it all burned up by the time the piston gets to say 90 degrees ATDC - for max power. For max efficiency, we prefer slightly later but that's also usually a lower charge amount.

    As any gas expands, its temp decreases, then increases as it's compressed. Some magical thing called thermodynamics does this. SO after the fuel/air has burned itself out, it's still hot and pushing the piston down - cooling in the process. Then the piston starts to compress it again until the exhaust valve opens where the hot, but cooling gasses are pushed out (in our case to the turbocharger). As the exhaust systeevolume increases the gasses are expanded (lto ess pressure) more and the temp gas down.

    In our case (actually our engines case) this expansion and temp decrease do not happen until after the turbine housing and down pipe.

    Now let's change something in the engine. Let's light the spark later in the cycle. The released heat happens later in the batch process (cycle) and there is more heat exposed to the cylinder walls cause the piston is lower in the bore cause things are happening later) and the gas temps at the bottom of the stroke are higher also. Same for when the exhaust valve opens to dump the pressure out. There is also more heat (higher temps) being exposed to the cylinder wall that needs to be suc
    sucked out via the cooling system.

    Third case is lighting the fire sooner. The piston is closer to the top of the bore so there is less cylinder exposed to the high heat, thus less heat loss to the cooling system. The gas temps at BDC are lower than the two prior conditions, thus EGT vales are lower also.

    The same amount of air/fuel was burned in each case above.

    The last case would provide the longest survivability of the engine [components] for the same power level.

    An added note on EGT values: we usually add MUCH more fuel than is neeed fo max power to boosted engines just to lower EGT values when using liquid fuels. The extra fuel absorbs more heat during the evaporation process, thus lowering chamber and EGT temp values.

    NOTE: Going richer with gaseous fuels (CNG, propane, etc.) will dramatically INCREASE EGTs - there is no evaporation cooling available.

    The biggest problem with the typical mods to the SVO-type engines is how hte factory handles boost and spark retard. When the EEC detects knock, the first thing it does is retard timing (to keep detonation away). as detailed above, that increases EGT values. Then it immediately reduces boost pressure using the interactive boost/knock control system, to get aweay form the knocking conditions.

    Next up is to INCREASE timing while keeping the boost down. This lowers EGT. Then, slowly, increase boost until knock is again detected, while regulating timing and boost to achieve reliable operation.

    When folks disable the interactive boost control system in the EEC and keep the KS system intact, there is no way for the EEC to lower boost pressure while it keeps timing retarded (which, as we already discussed, increases EGT values).

    For those that have removed the KS system AND installed manual bost controllers, there is no knock correction and no interactive boost control for he EEC to manage. I suspect these folks replace head gaskets more often.
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  5. #5
    Some Boost SchoolBoy's Avatar
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    Excellent explanation as always Mike! That would explain why when dad retarded my timing years back we came back from the test drive with a red E-6 manifold. Timing was reset to 10* spout unplugged.

    Now you also touched on 1650F being the upper range standard for boosted engines at full load. So my goal when tuning should be to keep my EGT's at or below that based on the presence of knock?

  6. #6
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    Excellent explanation as always Mike!
    Thank You, Thank You very much.

    That would explain why when dad retarded my timing years back we came back from the test drive with a red E-6 manifold. Timing was reset to 10* spout unplugged.
    Yes indeed. Heavy load with retarded timing will DRAMATICALLY increase EGT values. It also drove like a small dog with a 20# weight on its tail, Yes??

    Now you also touched on 1650F being the upper range standard for boosted engines at full load. So my goal when tuning should be to keep my EGT's at or below that based on the presence of knock?
    1650 F peak seems to the be the norm for *stock* boosted engines.

    As power levels increase, it's typical for EGT to increase as it is also an indication of power level. For an 8-cylinder eng making 400HP there are eight ports to dump the heat - only 50HP of heat to handle; half that in our 4-cylinder engines so the temps are higher for the same power level (100 HP per hole). In turbo'd engine that heat stays pretty constant from the exhaust valve seat to the turbocharger outlet (when under boost). The temp drop-off is much faster (length of exhaust tubing) in supercharged engines.

    I would advise limiting EGT values based on what kind of engine life you are desiring/expecting. 1650F seems acceptable for 5 year/60K miles kind of warranty, 1750 F might be closer to 12/12K. 1850 even less. 1950 is usually measured in hours.

    It's time at temp that matters. 1950 F for 20 seconds in a drag car is nowhere near as bad as 1850 for 20 minutes in a road racer. Street cars don't see the same continuous heat as road race cars, while they see more than drag engines. Endurance road race engines need much more conservative "tunes" and lower EGTs to survive for 6+ hours at temp. If you can get 300-400 HP with max EGT values between 1650 & 1700 (iron head). I'd call that success.

    Also important is how that heat is extracted from the engine and exhaust system components. For example aluminum heads and better coolant flow (with larger radiators and appropriate cooling airflow) work wonders for extended time at tamp conditions.

    Short answer: making reliable power in boosted petrol IC engines is related to thermal management.

    Note that the exhaust system components are a consumable at these temps: Bolts, castings, tubing, etc. We have seen this with fasteners and turbine housings on our engines. The big guys (well, big budgets) running Inconel exhaust systems have failures after a few races. Look at Indy car and the previous F1 turbo era. We don't have much data on current year F1 engines yet - while there have been some failures. A few years back there were some exhaust system failures in non-boosted F1 engines (that often resulted in body fires as the exhaust exit was routed forwards for aero effect).

    In my Red Baron it's currently eating 44-46 #/min between 4500 and 7500 RPM at full chat. That translates to about 400 Ft-Lbs indicated - while the max EGT for that range under full load is 1680F. I'm mostly happy with that tune level. As a future project I plan to remove the Essy 2277 and install the previous "stump puller" cam that I had in there in late 2006. Hoping to move the torque peak down 1000 RPM.
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  7. #7
    Some Boost SchoolBoy's Avatar
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    Yes it drove like a sad, sad dog.

    Since this is my daily driver would 1500ish be a good goal for a street car, or do you get into problems running that cool?

    Also how far from the turbo would you place the wideband sensor? Its my understanding that to close to the turbo and you'll cook the sensor, to far away and you skew the readings.

  8. #8
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    Since this is my daily driver would 1500ish be a good goal for a street car, or do you get into problems running that cool?
    NA engines run in the 1250-1400 F range under full chat. I suspect you will have a VERY difficult time getting EGT that low on a turbo engine without running E85 or E100.

    Also how far from the turbo would you place the wideband sensor? Its my understanding that to close to the turbo and you'll cook the sensor, to far away and you skew the readings.
    You want the sensor to be in the 750-900 F range. Too hot usually damages them. The sweet spot on our cars is between 16 and 30 inches PAST the turbine housing. It can be anywhere colder too - they have heaters built-in but the lag time gets higher (the time it takes the spent gases to leave the exhaust port and then reach the sensor). Find a place past 16" where the is clearance and access. You want the wired end of the sensor pointing upwards as much as possible - for moisture drainage..
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  9. #9
    Some Boost Under Pressure's Avatar
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    Ive melted the #1 piston before, that's why I've turned the boost down to 12 psi & I leave my knock sensor plugged in with 10* timing base I don't trust pump gasoline. It's bad!

  10. #10
    Half Boost Raven855's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFleming View Post
    You want the sensor to be in the 750-900 F range.
    I thought I would I clarify this a little. The innovate WB you are using is using the Bosch 4.2 sensor. The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the bung) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Be sure you have good grounds and supply(low noise) or chances are you will be registering on the lean side. They are not really designed to use race fuels. Can you use them? Sure can! The WB systems that use the NTK WBO2 sensor are slightly more accurate, withstands higher exhaust heat (forced induction) and are compatible with methanol/race fuels.

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