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Thread: The Tire thread. All discussions of tires should go here.

  1. #1
    Moderator Bob Holmes's Avatar
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    The Tire thread. All discussions of tires should go here.

    The tires available from manufacturers change constantly. I started this thread so that we can try and have a singular place to discuss tires on an on-going basis. Given that tires are the single most important component (all else equal) to determine the ride quality, and handling of the vehicle, they really need their own focus.

    I'm currently in the market place for an Ultra High Performance tire for my stock wheeled SVO. While I'd like to move up to a 17" wheel in the future, I'm stuck with the 16" at the current moment. Although ride quality has traditionally not been an important characteristic, for me, when choosing a tire, that has recently changed.

    So in a 225/50/16, what are the tires that you guys have been looking at or purchased recently, how have you liked them and would you purchase them again? Would you suggest a different size 16" tire? My car has been lowered about 1.5" and I don't want any tire rub.

    Bob
    Enough of that, it was giving me a headache.

  2. #2
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec - Extreme Performance Summer.
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  3. #3
    Half Boost Raven855's Avatar
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    I have been looking at tires and brakes lately too. Most of the info here came from an SCCA forum a year ago. I use the Continintals in a 17" and like them.
    Here is some info I found:
    Hottest Autocross Tires for 2011

    Pre-empting the inevitable first post, the fastest autocross tires are:
    1) Hoosier A6
    2) Kumho V710
    Andy Hollis found for Grassroots Motorsports that the Kuhmo Ecsta XS was 2 seconds slower than Kuhmo V710 r-comps on a typical 60-second course, and Rick Ruth did his magic number crunching and came up with 1.5 seconds street tire pax. The Hoosier A6 is, by far, the fastest autocross tire. SCCA stock and street prepared are virtual A6-spec classes. Really not much else to discuss; A6 if you can afford it, V710 if you can't (slightly slower, but last 2-3x longer).


    Street Tires

    Street tire technology has been changing so quickly the past few years that “the” tire to have one year is barely an also-ran two years later. (A virtual spec class just a few years ago, Falkin was nowhere to be seen in 2010.) Surprisingly, there hasn’t been much change for 2011 from 2010. The top tires from last year- Kuhmo XS, Hankook RS-3, Dunlop Star Spec, Toyo R1R, Bridgestone RE-11, and Yokohama AD08s, and all are FAST. Each have strong and weak points, and any single one of them may be the fastest on any given day on a given car. You really can't go wrong with any of these tires.

    New tires for 2011:
    Michelin Pilot Sport PS3. Michelin claims large improvements in wet handling and mileage, but similar performance to the PS2 in dry handling and dry braking. We’ll have to wait for additional tests, but the PS3 will likely be a great performance daily driver, but a “slow” tire for autocross.
    Continental ExtremeContact DW. Getting rave reviews as an awesome awesome rain tire.
    Tirerack test data:
    (IMG:http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...pt1/chart2.gif)

    Lateral G-forces from tests on different model year BMWs from several recent years of testing (margin of error is about +/- about 0.04g near as I can tell.).:
    0.98g-1.01 Kumho Ecsta XS Extreme Performance Summer
    0.99 (+?) Bridgestone Potenza RE-11
    0.98-0.99g BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD
    0.98g (=) Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD07
    0.98g (-?) Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric
    0.97g Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08
    0.96g-0.97 (+?) Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec
    0.97g (-?) Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1
    0.96-0.99g Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R
    0.96g (-?) Michelin Pilot Sport PS2
    0.95g (+?) Sumitomo HTR Z III
    0.95g Hankook Ventus R-S2 Z212
    0.94-0.96g Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position
    0.94-0.97g Continental ContiSportContact 3
    0.92g (+?) Yokohama ADVAN Sport
    0.93g BFGoodrich g-Force Sport

    Note: TireRack switched up the test car again, so although they tested the Continental ExtremeContact DW, the numbers aren't directly comparable to those above. It scored identical to the Michelin PS2 in the dry, and significantly better than the PS2 wet.

    Not reviewed by Tirerack:
    Falken AZenis RT-615K
    Nitto NT05 (disappointing in other reviews)
    Hankook RS3
    Toyo R1R

    (IMG:http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...pt1/chart5.gif)

    The raw g-force numbers don't tell the whole story. Braking, steering response and turn-in of the Star Specs and AD08s was considerably better than the RE11 or Kuhmos, which gave them better times in the slalom. In fact, the weakest cornering tires in their g-force tests (AD08 & Star Specs) turned in the fastest overall lap times. The final lap times of these 4 tires is practically identical, a mere tenth of a second, and well within fine adjustments of driver precision, tire pressure, course design, environmental differences and general margin of error of their tests.

    (IMG:http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...pt1/chart4.gif)

    Car and Driver's "Affordable" summer tires review:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests (of the top tires, only Kuhmo and Star Spec were reviewed; they also took comfort and road noise into account, so ignore the overall numbers.)

    QUOTE("Grassrooms Motorsports autocross test")
    1. Kumho ECSTA XS = 34.170/34.030
    2. Bridgestone RE-11 = 34.266/34.238
    3. Bridgestone RE-01R = 34.478/34.430
    4. Toyo Proxes R1R = 34.522/34.452
    5. Dunlop Z1 Star Spec = 35.209/35.061
    6. Falken Azenis RT-615 = 35.302/35.125

    A number of people have asked for my recommendation on what tire to get, and the answer is always “it depends.” It depends on what the course is like, on the temperature, on whether they’re dedicated play tires or your daily driver, etc. The tires I find myself most often recommending are Kuhmo XS, Dunlop Star Spec and Hankook RS3. These three also happen to be reasonably priced, and roughly half what the Bridgestone RE11, Michelin PS2, Toyo R1R and Yokohama AD08 cost. RE11, R1R and AD08 are great tires and turn in competitive times, but are not really any better than XS, Star Spec or RS3. Now, these are just my opinions, which should not be worth a whole lot as I’m not a professional tire tester, and have very little personal experience with most of these tires. In fact, my sole qualification has been reading up and writing this post each year, so feel free to comment.

    Kumho XS: This tire gives the best lateral grip of any 140 tire, and is consistently at the top of benchmarks. It has horrible wet-weather performance, though, and requires significant warm-up time; the first autocross lap is a throwaway. In colder weather, it just can’t get enough heat to come up to temperature. It seems to work better for larger cars that can put heat into the tires faster than for smaller cars. It loves hot days. It trades off longitudinal grip for lateral grip vs Star Spec, and is fastest in courses with long sweepers (like ACU4) vs small tight courses (like Pungo). Only two people drove them at 2010 nats last year. Update from discussions below: It's "can't drive your car in the winter in VA Beach" slippery when cold on a Trans-Am. And even worse on a on a lighter car (miata). However, they CAN NOT be over heated. Back to back 20 runs and they love it. On the other hand, they NEVER have good longitudinal acceleration. They hate the rain. Are suppose to work better when shaved.

    Hankook RS3: I’ve seen very little formal testing of the RS3, but it appears to be extremely quick, and far better balanced than the Kuhmo XS with respect to wet/dry performance. It requires warm-up time for maximum grip, but not as much as the XS or r-comps do. Like the XS, it loves heat and does well in VA in the summer. This tire is also symmetrical, allowing it to be flipped on the rim on high-cambered cars. These had a great showing on the podium at nats last year, sharing STS about 50/50 with Toyo, and sharing STX roughly evenly with Toyo, Bridgestone and Dunlop. Update from discussions below: Crisp turn-in, very predictable and easy to control. They have better grip that a track compound R-comp in an autox environment. Even work acceptably well in the rain. These are the tires....with a season of racing already on them...that Shawn used to place first in PAX at Pungo in my car. Finally, they seemed to give as good as they got at the nationals in STS. Andy Hollis (in a tire test) says this is the one tire that seems to do just as well full tread as when shaved.

    Dunlop Z1 Star Spec This tire gives the best braking, steering response and turn-in of any 140 tire in tests, but the trade-off is slightly lower grip on the skidpad. It has excellent wet and dry performance, and requires very little warm-up, giving excellent grip on the first run. It’s fastest in small tight courses (like Pungo), but falls behind the XS and RS3 on fast courses with long sweepers like ACU4. While not a snow tire, it has a clear advantage over these in colder weather; grip is reduced, but not to the degree the others are. Because of the great wet and cold weather and braking performance, it makes an excellent daily driver. It doesn’t deal as well with extreme heat as well as RS3 and XS, though. It’s symmetric, and can be flipped on the rim to extend life on highly cambered cars. Virtually all the STU podium as SCCA nats in 2010 (and a lot of STX) were on Dunlops, despite Dunlop being the only major manufacturer there not offering contingency.

    Sumitomo HTR ZIII Not an autocross tire, but pretty close to it. Good wet and dry. And dirt cheap. I’d recommend this as a daily driver to anyone who wants good fast street tires, but isn’t actually going to race on them.

    Continental ExtremeContact DW This is the new rain tire to get. It's getting rave reviews as an awesome awesome rain tire. It reportedly gives up significant time in the dry to the other summer tires, so it's more of a specialized rain tire for autocross purposes, but is reasonablypriced (similar to Dunlop and XS) should make a terrific daily driver in wet areas.

    So, in summary, buy the tire that fits your wheels.

  4. #4
    Some Boost vrinner's Avatar
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    Tony has too much time on his hands if he typed all that...good info though.
    I have the second...make that the first best 2.3t race car. Bob has...had the best one...Bob...when is the last time yours was on the track...lets race for Pinks! I'll be at Buttonwillow in September!

  5. #5
    Animated Italian Gigolo blueboss's Avatar
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    Mine is daily driven by my son all year round. I bought the Continental Extreme Contact DWS. Aside from an abnormally soft sidewall, they've been really good. No traction issues in the rain or snow aside from the obvious of driving a Mustang in the snow. Although Tire Rack has them categorized as an "Ultra High Performance All Season" tire, I beg to differ due to the soft sidewall thing. He's not put it into a ditch in almost 3 years of driving going through 2 winters. So that's either a testament to his driving prowess (ergo, my abilities as an instructor), a properly equipped car or a combination of both.
    "Some trannys can operate both types of gearboxes but manual gearboxes with clutch pedals are more difficult to operate with heels on."

  6. #6
    Half Boost Raven855's Avatar
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    He's Italian! He gets it naturally!

  7. #7
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    I'm puzzled on Tony's post. That article mentions 140 wear rating a couple times and the Star Specs are rated at either 200 or 220 (depends on size). so is that 140 reference meaning >140?

    I have Star Specs on the EVO. WONDERFUL UHP summer tire. Not so good when the weather turns cold - for the few days a year we have around here that are <40 F.

    When I attended the Jim Russell Evolution Experience at Infineon (the track formerly known as Sears Point) the cars had Conti's on them. An impressive tire for sure. Much better than my initial expectations. And we smoked them whenever we got a chance.
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  8. #8
    Moderator Bob Holmes's Avatar
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    Its back to Sears Point, Infineon didn't re-up.

    Tire rack has a sale on the Hankook Evo for really cheap. I might have to go for that.

    The Goodyear eagle F1s are currently on the Ranger.
    Enough of that, it was giving me a headache.

  9. #9
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    Its back to Sears Point, Infineon didn't re-up.
    My prayers were answered!

    Tire rack has a sale on the Hankook Evo for really cheap. I might have to go for that.
    You talking about the Hankook Ventus V12 evo K110? If you want a soft, mushy, low grip tire in hot & dry conditions, then OK. If you're actually looking for a performance tire, skip these.

    Had a set on the EVO for 148 miles then took them off. Yep, that bad from new. I was seriously disappointed (changed to them from the Nitto INVO, a much superior summer performance tire that is about the same price). Could slip all four Hankook tires with WOT in the three lower gears in the all-wheel drive EVO X. Like driving on loose sand in corners. Very soft sidewalls.

    Probably a good quiet highway ride with low treadwear, just not a performance tire, imho.
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  10. #10
    Moderator Bob Holmes's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike.

    Since I spend most of the year in hot & dry conditions, I'll follow your recommendation to pass.
    Enough of that, it was giving me a headache.

  11. #11
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    15 CP DaveS's Avatar


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    Today was the first autocross with the Bridgestone RE-11 on Stacey's SVO. She really liked them, better than the RE01s. They also got a big thumbs up today from one of our locals who won SCCA national B Stock title.

  12. #12
    Moderator Meotchh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeFleming View Post
    My prayers were answered!

    You talking about the Hankook Ventus V12 evo K110? If you want a soft, mushy, low grip tire in hot & dry conditions, then OK. If you're actually looking for a performance tire, skip these.

    Had a set on the EVO for 148 miles then took them off. Yep, that bad from new. I was seriously disappointed (changed to them from the Nitto INVO, a much superior summer performance tire that is about the same price). Could slip all four Hankook tires with WOT in the three lower gears in the all-wheel drive EVO X. Like driving on loose sand in corners. Very soft sidewalls.

    Probably a good quiet highway ride with low treadwear, just not a performance tire, imho.
    I do believe Flat Bob would back those Hankook's as a great solid tire! He wears their tread with pride!
    There's nothing more to see here, now move along...

  13. #13
    Red Captain MikeFleming's Avatar
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    ^
    Flat Bob is a special case. Very special.
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  14. #14
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    (aka Anonymous) Club Member Patrick's Avatar


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    Here is my testimony regarding the Falkens on (now off!) my red 85.5.

    http://www.svocop.com/forum/showthre...-Wheel-Balance
    "Just leave me alone. I know what to do" (Kimi)

  15. #15
    Building Boost 03shkr's Avatar
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    Anyone have anything new to add? I'm looking at tires and want something sticky for the road course. But I want to be able to drive to the track and back home without changing the wheels. I am going with 225/50/16s on the stock wheels (I don't want to fart around with wheel/tire fitment isues). I really don't care how many miles the tires are good for, unless they cost $300-$400 per tire (then I care).

    Anyone with experience/miles on these tires:

    • Hankook Ventus R-S3
    • Kuhmo Ecsta XS (I have run these before and was pleased)
    • Toyo Proxes R1R
    • Toyo Proes R888
    Brian
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  16. #16
    Building Boost
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    new Hankook info

    Quote Originally Posted by 03shkr View Post
    Anyone have anything new to add? I'm looking at tires and want something sticky for the road course. But I want to be able to drive to the track and back home without changing the wheels. I am going with 225/50/16s on the stock wheels (I don't want to fart around with wheel/tire fitment isues). I really don't care how many miles the tires are good for, unless they cost $300-$400 per tire (then I care).

    Anyone with experience/miles on these tires:

    • Hankook Ventus R-S3
    • Kuhmo Ecsta XS (I have run these before and was pleased)
    • Toyo Proxes R1R
    • Toyo Proes R888
    I have been open tracking the Hankook RS2's and now RS3's for a few years and think they are great. I replaced some Yokahoma tires with these and have been very happy. I ran the stock wheels with 245's all around, then tried 225 up front. Overall grip was much better with the 245 all around. These tires take the summer heat at Thunderhill and are pretty darn good with full tread. The grip is not too bad when cold or wet. For the money I don't think you can do better. Now that I am converting to 17 inch I just wish they made 275!!!

    Chris

  17. #17
    Moderator Bob Holmes's Avatar
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    Chris, tell us how you're converting to 17"?
    Enough of that, it was giving me a headache.

  18. #18
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    (aka Anonymous) Club Member Patrick's Avatar


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    What are all those yellow, blue, red dots on the tire sidewall for? :

    http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf
    "Just leave me alone. I know what to do" (Kimi)

  19. #19
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    I put a set of dunlop direzza dz101 tires on my SVO and really like them, they are kind of a baby more street oriented version of the star specs

  20. #20
    Some Boost stott's Avatar
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    currently, the best available street tires are the michelin pilot super sport. bottom line, you're not going to find a better performing street tire.

    i also like the goodyear f1 asymmetric 2

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