The Great A/C Conundrum!?!?!?!?!

[Chalky]

Not sure where to put HVAC topics but you feel it IN the car so this will do.

Anyways, looking at rebuilding my A/C system and looking at various options. It's for a nice driver/ show car so it has to look reasonable, be very functional and hopefully use R-134a and be easily serviceable. I also want to retain the v-belt drive.

1. Go Original: I already have an NOS condenser and two of the lines. I would need to aquire the compressor and clutch ( about $375) as well as the ultra rare suction hose that goes from the accumulator to the compressor. I'd probably have to have it made. Original style accumulators aren't available so I have a quote request in with Classic Auto Air to rebuild one of mine. On the plus side, I have most of it and it's plug and play The only downside to this is I don't think I want to use expensive NOS parts on a driver. Also, I don't think the HR-980 is compatible with R-134a and as memory serves, they aren't very efficient.

2. Hose Wizard kit: This seems like a good option and for the price, LRS has it for $779, seems like a winner. Seems like people love it or hate and I've only ever seen it installed on 2 SVO. Greg's had the serpentine system, which i think looks really cluttered, and Mike has the v-belt system and said the compressor bracket, as delivered, was crap. My only other reservation is that the installs I've seen looked a bit thrown together as if the system wasn't designed for an SVO but was made to fit.

3. Build my Own: In the course of doing all this research I have discovered a few things. What's still available, what isn't and what fits what. Seems I can buy a Sanden SD 709 compressor for $185. The condenser (stock SVO) is $115 and an accumulator (stock SVO) can be had for $40 but it's quite different to the original and a rebuilt original might be a better option. That leaves me $440 dollars to get hoses made and a quick call to the local Mac's Radiator store I got a rough quote of $550 to make the hoses, evac the system and charge it up. I've also discovered some cool sources where I can buy hoses and fitting in order to make my own. The advantage to this is I could make them as per original. I'd also have to make my own compressor bracket but I'm pretty handy with a welder and the motor will be on a stand so that's pretty easy. Although it's a lot more work and may not save me any money, i think it fits all the criteria. Stock(ish) look, R-134a, v-belt drive.

Gentlemen, the floor is open. Please share your thoughts, experiences and suggestions.

[Patrick]

One thing I believe that you need to keep in mind:

On Greg's Hose Wizard installation, one of the hoses that mounted to the compressor was installed (due to the design of the hose and hose end) in a manner that normal engine movement would try to loosen the fitting. It loosened up on Greg one time. A90* adapter or different type hose end might fix that problem.

Sanden has many versions of that compressor. Their online catalog has very specific dimensions on each one. I have several samples in the garage.

[MikeFleming]

^
Samples of Sanden's catalog? or their compressors?

[Patrick]

Compressors with different diameter vee belt pulleys.

Another thing to keep in mind is that certain types of freons are getting much more expensive this year because the government mandated a 50% production cutback this year as they get phased out.

[MAPSVO]

I have two cars ( 1 SVO, 1 Turbo GT) that need the air put back on. I bought two HR 980s new in the Ford boxes for $215 shipped (Ebay), this does not include the clutches, but I have several used ones and have been able to sort of build what I needed in the past from used parts.

I don't know how efficient the HR 980 is but I have used it with R134 several times with no complaints.

I have bought aftermarket accumulators with the barbed fittings. Once I cut the original hose and used hose clamps (no leak worked ok, looked bad) and once I cut the old hose and had it recrimped on to the new accumulator ( worked well, looked good).

So at any rate I plan on using original or as close as possible on mine.

I do need one of the mounting plates/brackets for the HR 980 compressor if you happen to have one that you are not going to use I would buy it from you.

Good luck, let us know how it all works out.

[SVOTim]

I used an old HR 980 compressor from a TCoupe motor with R134 conversion, works good for me, so far (on 2nd yr). I did replace all the gaskets and o-rings with the proper ones. However I did nothing to the compressor. New line with orffice tube, new condensor, new accumulator. Mine is a serpentine belt set up. A buddy Vac and charged the system, Bam cold air...

[Chalky]

So I got the quote back from C.A.A. $95 and 4 weeks to rebuild my original accumulator which is pretty good. An "incorrect" replacement is $40 odd. Also discovered that since I plan on using the original style condensor and evaporator I could use a stock replacement liquid line which is about $54.

Mike, whats the compressor on the Red Baron???

[MikeFleming]

Mike, whats the compressor on the Red Baron???

The RB has a Sanden comp, iirc. it's kinda long for the space available. It came in the Hose Wizards "kit". Was not able ot use any of the included brackets - definitely NOT for a turbo'd engine.

It needs to be completely re-engineered, especially the hose routing and mounting - they mount to a manifold on the rear of the compressor body, which happens to be where the turbocharger compressor inlet lives. So there is physical interference and with the close quarters to the turbo inlet and exhaust header, getting the rather excessively large fittings tightened is a pita.

I was thinking of moving the compressor down a few more inches then making a solid tube manifold from the rear of the housing to the front top side where the threaded tube fittings can be connected/disconnected to the assorted freon hoses. Naturally that would require all custom work including hoses. The only competent hose shop around here is NOT somewhere that I would leave the RB for more than a few minutes. Sigh. So it would turn into many iterations of make something initially, test install, measure, photograph, correct, ...

In any case, it's a low priority project just now.

[BrianM]

I would go the Hose Wizard route. A system designed originally for R12 just isnt going to cool as well with the R134. The photos I have seen of that setup look pretty nice. Show room original no but doesn't look like a hodgepodge either. With AC I would choose function.

[Raven855]

I would go the Hose Wizard route. A system designed originally for R12 just isnt going to cool as well with the R134. The photos I have seen of that setup look pretty nice. Show room original no but doesn't look like a hodgepodge either. With AC I would choose function.

Not true, the r12 replacements can be just as efficient or even better than the original. I have a Hose Wizard kit, a very early model and indeed the original bracket was junk, but the bracket has improved quite abit. The kit works just fine. The problem you get into is most people simple do not have the tools to service the installed units properly. There is also a talent to it. With that in mind make sure of what you are doing. If you are simply adding R12 to your system make sure that the r12 you are adding is clean,and free of contaminates. It will most like contain an oil, make sure it is compatible with the oil in your system and that the installed seals are compatible. If the system has been open to the air for some time, even doing a flush, triple evac and setting it on a vacuum pump overnight with heat lamps may not be enough to boil all of the air out. Replace the seals,oil, flush, nitrogen purge, replace the dissecitant, and evac down using a micro gage. On a conversion you will need less total freon but to maximize efficiency you really need to increase the size on the condenser by 10 to 20 %. Sometimes you should increase the size of the evaporator also. The Sanden compressors are absolutly great! Put together your own conversion. The bracket and compressor configuration will probably be your biggest obstacle.

[BrianM]

Not true, the r12 replacements can be just as efficient or even better than the original. I have a Hose Wizard kit, a very early model and indeed the original bracket was junk, but the bracket has improved quite abit. The kit works just fine. The problem you get into is most people simple do not have the tools to service the installed units properly. There is also a talent to it. With that in mind make sure of what you are doing. If you are simply adding R12 to your system make sure that the r12 you are adding is clean,and free of contaminates. It will most like contain an oil, make sure it is compatible with the oil in your system and that the installed seals are compatible. If the system has been open to the air for some time, even doing a flush, triple evac and setting it on a vacuum pump overnight with heat lamps may not be enough to boil all of the air out. Replace the seals,oil, flush, nitrogen purge, replace the dissecitant, and evac down using a micro gage. On a conversion you will need less total freon but to maximize efficiency you really need to increase the size on the condenser by 10 to 20 %. Sometimes you should increase the size of the evaporator also. The Sanden compressors are absolutly great! Put together your own conversion. The bracket and compressor configuration will probably be your biggest obstacle.

You state not true at the beginning of your response to me but then go on to say "to maximize efficiency you really need to increase the size on the condenser by 10 to 20 %. Sometimes you should increase the size of the evaporator also." So you actually confirm what I am saying. That a stock system designed for R12 is not going to cool as effectively using 134. Increasing the size of the condenser and evaporator is redesigning the system to work efficiently with 134.

[Chalky]

Mike, I went through my pics of the Baron (I have a little altar at my house) and saw it was a Sanden, just not sure of the model. I was thinking of going with this version of the Sd-709, see pics, because of the top ports. It's rated at 154cc and the HR-980 is rated at 161cc. I found a company, Nostalgic Air Parts www.nostalgicairparts.com that also sells compressor adaptors.

I think if I stick with the stock evaporator, accumulator, condenser and liquid line I will only need to fab the compressor bracket and the suction and discharge hoses. I think this is the best solution, although a little time consuming, because it will give me the functionality (R-134a) and a close to stock look.

[Patrick]

Did you look into re-clocking the rear manifold 90*?

[Raven855]

You state not true at the beginning of your response to me but then go on to say "to maximize efficiency you really need to increase the size on the condenser by 10 to 20 %. Sometimes you should increase the size of the evaporator also." So you actually confirm what I am saying. That a stock system designed for R12 is not going to cool as effectively using 134. Increasing the size of the condenser and evaporator is redesigning the system to work efficiently with 134.

It doesn't confirm what you are saying. I gave him suggestions on how to maximize his cooling. Compressors are designed to meet the needs of quite a few vehicles. The old Frigidare A6 was used in the Ford Ranchero, Gm Suburban, Rolls Royce and busses. The same compressor displaced the same amount, had the same valving and the same clutch but there are ways to maximize it for the different vehicles that it is installed in. The same goes for the Sanden compressor and even the HR980. Will it work to simply install the freon and go, yes. The same could be said for a number of components in a car like tires. I can put space saver tires on an SVO and Pat could outdrive most of us here. But doing that is not the answer for the rest of us

If you want more info on the correct useage of a micron gage or figuring super heat and sub cooling or getting your 608 and 609 EPA certifications I can expand that here. But again it doesn't put ac in Chaulky's car.

[Chalky]

If you want more info on the correct useage of a micron gage or figuring super heat and sub cooling or getting your 608 and 609 EPA certifications I can expand that here.

English???? And people think i talk funny

[MikeFleming]

And people think i talk funny

But you DO talk funny! In a good way though.

Cbris - that compressor shown above will not work in that view installation as the rear tubes will completely interfere with the turbocharged inlet elbow. Maybe if it was rotated 180 degrees so the tubes are on the bottom but then there'd be clearance issues with the hose connections against the mounting bracket and the block. And the hoses would be down low, exposed.

I like the tube manifold extension idea, but that would need to be positioned so it doesn't foul the turbo, header, block or frame rail and doesn't leave the hoses exposed to road debris (like deer).

[MikeFleming]

On the condensor sizing thing - the Mustang had (has?) the smallest condensor of any Ford model and - even when using R12 - it needs to be increased in size for more appropriate cooling. Even on a stock car. The stock AC sucks, imho.

The heat transfer with R134 is slightly lower - at the same pressure & flow rates - than R12. Almost all R134 systems use less freon at a higher pressure. So a larger condensor (more heat surface transfer area) is in order when switching to R134. A stock SVO used 40 ounces, iirc, of R12 while my 2008 EVO uses 14 ounces of R134. And the EVO's AC will beat the AC cooling capacity of the Mustang all day, everyday.

[Patrick]

"608 and 609 EPA certifications "

Save the ozone layer, Drive a comp prep.

[Bob Holmes]

Here's a "parallel pass" condenser that I've looked at:

http://www.ackits.com/c/Parallel/Par...+Aluminum.html

There is a Ranger bracket that mounts very close to the block, a friend gave me an NOS service replacement. Neat little aluminum bracket. I'll have to see if I can get it to work.

[MikeFleming]

^
Need pics.